Dark Knight dungeon survivability suggestion

[Malthir]

Drk's have an issue when fighting more the 2 enemies at once, their only self sustain is on their single target, they have an OGCD heal that's on a minute cooldown. This is why Drks have issues in on level dungeons cause wall to wall pulls are hard when you don't have block and heal options, and no TBN is not something that viable helps because you end up running it at a DPS loss alot of the time in the wall to wall, the dps loss for a Drk is particularly punishing because the idea of their lack of mitigation is that they have increased damage to end the fights fast thus taking less damage that a WAR or PAL would since the fight ended quicker.

This has all been invalidated by the latest WAR and Pal buff which now makes their DPS comparable to Drk and GB, while still keeping all their self sustains/mitigations.

[Jokerz_93]

Sorry if I ask and if I sound rude, but honestly how many ppl here main DRK?.
And with “main” I’m referring to actual knowing how the class works, not just playing it because it’s fun or cool or whatever…
Cus…everything you guys are saying it seems skill issues to me. (same like I had in the when learning this job).
Not saying DRK is perfect ofc and many ideas can be taken as base for future upgrades, but…really?

I mean, probably the core of DRK and GNB is having a “more difficult” tank to play with, with more stuff to have and to manage than the other two.
(Che poi parlare di difficoltà è un’enorme esagerazione. Invece di premere un bottone per slot weave ne si premono due…minchia la difficoltà. Sarà che sono sempre stato sopra la media bah…)

I don’t want to be that guy who says “don’t play it”, rather the one who says “well, git gud. If you like the job and you want to put some effort on learning it, then stop complaining and git gud”.

I know this can sound rude, apologise.
Nevertheless, it’s just not worth complaining for a thing when you can just get better at it, because the job has a good survivability right now.

Besides we are waiting for Healer reworks for a quiet time by now, I think it’s going to take a while before the state of DRK can be taken into account.
In the e meantime enjoy your learning.

[Malthir]

Sorry if I ask and if I sound rude, but honestly how many ppl here main DRK?.
Cus…everything you guys are saying it seems skill issues to me. (same like I had in the when learning this job).
Not saying DRK is perfect ofc and many ideas can be taken as base for future upgrades, but…really?

I mean, probably the core of DRK and GNB is having a “more difficult” tank to play with, with more stuff to have and to manage than the other two.
(Che poi parlare di difficoltà è un’enorme esagerazione. Invece di premere un bottone per slot weave ne si premono due…minchia la difficoltà. Sarà che sono sempre stato sopra la media bah…)

I don’t want to be that guy who says “don’t play it”, rather the one who says “well, git gud. If you like the job and you want to put some effort on learning it, then stop complaining and git gud”.

I know this can sound rude, apologise.
Nevertheless, it’s just not worth complaining for a thing when you can just get better at it, because the job has a good survivability right now.

Besides we are waiting for Healer reworks for a quiet time by now, I think it’s going to take a while before the state of DRK can be taken into account.
In the e meantime enjoy your learning.

So I've primarily played Drk since Heavensward.
The class fun wise has been getting worse and worse each expac which is why I think alot of Drks are frustrated. The devs dont seem to listen to any Drk player complaints either considering it took them 5 years to slightly fix a button that literally killed us.
when it comes to playing them, you can do all content on the Drk that you can on Pal and War, the difference is it's significantly harder to do it on the Drk. This used to be the case in Heavensward too, as Drks kinda sucked but the difference is they, had an identity and alot of fun moves to use, at times it was pain incarnate but it was enjoyable.

Then from Stormblood on the dev team have consistently made choices that make the Drk less enjoyable to play. Any unique or interesting features we had were unceremoniously taken from us and given to other classes, all the moves and animations we liked were taken away and we were left with the worst animations. The WAR mechanic and Machinist mechanic were bolted onto the dark in place of all the enjoyable stuff they took off us, making the class boring as hell

They took away all our self sustain because we had the highest damage output, then they buffed every tank to do the same damage as us.

Those are the real reasons alot of Drk players are mad, and rightly so imo, the dev team pretty much hate Drk they've shown this repeatedly and it's very frustrating for players, personally I've unsubbed since last patch and my accounts now on remaining days, I likely wont resub even on the next expac because honestly 3 expacs of disrespect and destruction of fun is enough for me to know it's not going to get better, they just don't care.

[Oizen]

I main the job at a high end and understand its ins and outs, but I don't think its grounds for discrediting people's frustrations with the job. Fact of the matter is, I often find that both ends tend to be right.

Good example is Dark Mind, casual players will think this skill is trash. High end raiders think this skill is busted. In the context of the content both players play, they're both right.
Dark Mind is great in raids, in a lot of fights is just rampart with a lower cooldown. But its a terrible lv.45 skill unless you're stopping the msq to do all of the high end content of each expansion as you reach that.
Its also an issue that you're left guessing on what damage type you're being hit by until you've been hit by and it memorize it. And if you pay attention to damage types in this game, there is no consistency to it.

I don't think DRK's survivability is all that bad, but I do take issues with how you achieve it and the payoff you get from it. DRK is the tank who is punished the most by improper mitigation. You have to be on point with your mitigation for an entire fight, and luckily DRK does have the skills to do this, but whats the benefit of doing it this way? Why is DRK pressing 4+ mitigations every buster to the other tanks 2?

WAR's got better party utility, a better invuln, and more damage and a comically low execution floor.
GNB is the hardest tank to execute, and is rewarded with the highest damage.
DRK is a harder job, but is rewarded with....what exactly? Magic resistance?

I've done clutch solos on bosses with the job, but it comes at the price of loosing Edge as a skill as you need TBN to keep damage off, but you're rarely in the position to guarantee its going to break every single usage. This can be offset slightly by Hyper-Potions, but I kinda hate how it comes to that.Once you get into other content like Orthos or Criterion DRK's survivability does become questionable. Bringing DRK into Criterion savage is throwing, its just no one cares about that content.

Bringing DRK into Orthos is awkward, and shows the glaring flaw of DRK's sustain powers in content that hits hard enough to be threatening, but not enough to break TBN. It just feels shitty, and makes the job a pot guzzling job when the other 3 tanks aren't, again to no real benefit or tradeoff.

Its kinda obvious there is no design intent behind the balance of tanks, and that DRK was only ever big damage tank the previous patches because random chance and the fact having so many ogcds synergies with the 2m burst windows.
So I don't think people complaining about the state of the job is unwarranted.

Besides we are waiting for Healer reworks for a quiet time by now, I think it’s going to take a while before the state of DRK can be taken into account.

Its not really a turn based system, not only does it seem like SE ignores feedback entirely, but the next jobs for better or worse to get reworks seems to be Astro and Dragoon.

[fulminating]

Dark knight hardly has a different floor to warrior. The ceiling is probably a bit higher, but given every fight is on rails the busyness doesn’t matter as much as it ought to. I suspect that the whole role is kind of an afterthought. Just press this button 5 times lol has been a questionable direction for combat which I think started with req on stormblood paladin? Then warrior got a 20 minute copied homework rework that stuck, then drk got made to fit the same mould and both have been pretty much abandoned since.

[SalamanderIX]

Not too worried about surviving a dungeon, a well timed abyssal drain tops you to full, and tbn absorbs a lot of autos for a while, and of course living dead is get out of jail now since you self-heal it.
Between using all of drks defensive cooldowns. you can survive without a healer, drk may have less consistant heal that warrior but it is sturdier. Might need to throw in some stuns and kiting on the harder pulls but it can be done pretty easily (past level 70)

The only thing that kind of sucks is all the other tanks can be a hero and solo the boss. Mind you this isn't a scenario that comes up much after the content is new.. dungeons are just so easy. Again, they don't even need healers, even with Dark Knight.

[Oizen]

Dark knight hardly has a different floor to warrior. The ceiling is probably a bit higher, but given every fight is on rails the busyness doesn’t matter as much as it ought to. I suspect that the whole role is kind of an afterthought. Just press this button 5 times lol has been a questionable direction for combat which I think started with req on stormblood paladin? Then warrior got a 20 minute copied homework rework that stuck, then drk got made to fit the same mould and both have been pretty much abandoned since.

I don't really agree, mainly because I've been asked to flex onto WAR a few times this tier and its been really really easy getting a hang of the job. Core rotation difficulty is about the same, save for DRK's higher apm but its not so much higher that its notable.

I would say between the two, DRK is far more punishing a job, keeping everything aligned while also being forced to use 4+ mitigations to match what WAR does with 2 can make that especially more challenging when a burst window is mechanic/TB.
Messing up on DRK can be scary because you don't really get fallback crutches, if your health falls too low you're really dependant on a healer to get you back up, which isn't the worst thing but PF can make that frusterating.

Meanwhile on WAR, if you mess up mitigations you basically get a do-overbutton with Equilibirum/healing from Bloodwhetting. P10S is a great example of a fight where I found myself perfectly mapping every single one of DRK's mitigations, including late casting Missionary so it overflows into tank busters. Take the tower TB as DRK, get launched away from your healer with a spicy DOT, better mare sure you have 3k MP to use TBN to not die here. Meanwhile WAR is just kinda, push button. Hell there are times when you can just rely on Nascent to get you through things so you can heal your co-tank as well.

They don't really balance around these sort of things which kinda leads me back to what I said earlier about it feeling like a trade off with no benefit.

[Absurdity]

Meanwhile WAR is just kinda, push button.

Which to me is honestly just a negative all around. Yes warrior performs well (especially with less constant DoT busters negating your healing) but god is it mindnumbingly boring to play when everything you do in every piece of content feels like you're just "kinda pushing buttons".

[Noox-115]

IDK I play DRK for dungeon and trials I rarely struggle even with w2w pulls I even solo a few boss too with Living dead honestly I see nothing wrong with DRK even tho it's the worse tank rn in term of healing and defense its just thrilling to have a Job that is for once challenging in the game

[Mithron]

I actually like the idea of Edge/Flood giving some health, I never thought of it before. Or at least Bloodspiller/Quietus/Living Shadow. We never get to use Abyssal Drain as often as we used to and it's mediocre at best for healing.

It is true that PLDs and DRKs have the least healing in AoE pulls which is sad. Old PLD at least had Holy Circle spam into Confiteor combo which was decent healing for awhile, but now you only do one every 3rd GCD and your sword combo is only 4 GCDs total, without increasing the healing I don't think, making it feel like a lot less. WAR just presses Raw Intuition and Equilibrium even without Thrill of Battle, while GNB has two Auroras and a burst heal on rather short CD plus massive damage reduction on Heart of Corundrum.

DRK has a lot of mitigation between Blackest Night and two Oblation charges (and Dark Mind when appropriate), but the healing it self is pitiful.