Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Eorzean_username]

If everyone in this game really wanted skill expression, we'd be drowning in BLMs. They'd be everywhere. All those BLM players would be frustrated that some of them have to play BRD [...] or MNK [...], because they really just want to play on the super hard BLM because they enjoy the gameplay and skill expression so much, that even if BLM was the lowest DPS Job, they'd all still be playing it. We'd be looking everywhere to see someone who has "Main Class:" as anything other than "Black Mage Lv 90". Yet not even the people pushing for SMN change are BLM mains.

...we don't see that in the playerbase as a whole, either. We see the exact opposite, with even very highly skilled players swapping to SMN in a heartbeat.

That doesn't seem to show a playerbase - even of the Ultimate raider type - that wants this mythical high skill expression Job.

As far as I can tell, this seems to be a pretty bluntly-true observation... albeit with a couple caveats that definitely need to be appended.

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First, you need to allow for the segment of the "skill-focused" playerbase that has any of the following issues:

• Cannot play a Caster due to team / static / comp needs
• Dislikes the DPS Role
• Dislikes Casting mechanics/playstyles in FFXIV (or games in general)
• Dislikes BLM or "wizard" or "magic" aesthetics
• Dislikes the BLM rotational style
• Dislikes the BLM story / fantasy
• etc...

...For "skill-focused" players meeting any such criteria, having "safe harbor" Jobs in other Role or playstyle categories is probably important, and something that they'll aggressively crusade for (and understandably-so).

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Second of all, there is "human nature" at play. I think sometimes, "skill-focused" players want SE's designers to "save them from themselves".

That is: by virtue of their more competitive and serious approach to the game, they ultimately do want to "win".

And by virtue of their respect for the game system, they also don't want to drag their team down during what is sometimes ridiculously-prolonged and tedious prog or reclear experiences.

Therefore, if a more efficient solution is made available, that has no real downsides, these players will feel pressured — either internally, externally, or both — to switch to that simpler and more efficient solution.

As a result, to some degree, the mere existence of SMN is a thorn in these players's side — something akin to, "Stop giving me this obviously-better option that I feel obligated to take in order to not grief my team / not make my life ridiculously-harder than necessary".

ie: I think some skill-focused players want EW SMN to "go away", because it's hard for them to say "No" to how tempting EW SMN is in high-pressure environments... even though they "want" to bring something that's more interesting to them.

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...But when you consider that, it's a bit interesting, in turn, to then ask if a lot of those players "truly" want "high skill expression" Jobs.

To be clear, I think that in some cases, the answer is definitely "Yes, I do — I play this game to be challenged".

And it's important to keep in mind that such players really do exist, and not to dismiss them — they're "high-functioning" within the context of FFXIV, and they feel like they're being "punished" just for being more skilled and capable, by having their fun toys (challenging and depthy Jobs, with a lot of space for both failure, and optimized success) constantly taken away from them in order to appease the broader majority.

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However, in other cases I honestly wonder if EW SMN might secretly be taking a lot of stress and pressure off of even many "dedicated" players... but it's just "taboo" for them to publicly-admit so in the sorts of "pride in the game" circles and communities that end up becoming their social networks.

In other words: perhaps a lot of more "upper-end" players feel obligated to vocally-dislike the EW SMN experience, and convince themselves that they hate it, because:

a) They've been conditioned to see overcoming FFXIV rotational challenges as a source of personal achievement and validation (which I think all human beings need, from some source, to not go crazy)

b) Their social environment is one in which they fear rejection or derision for showing open support for something perceived as being as "intellectually inferior" (or whatever) as EW SMN

...So any relaxation or joy that they might take from having a lower-pressure, less-distracting Job to use, instead turns into:

"Wow, I assure you, I really hate this... I'm only eating it because it's the most calorically-efficient choice... but again, I assure you, I hate the taste of this... nom nom nom... oh, this is so gross... nom nom nom... ugh, disgusting... nom nom nom...".

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...To be very clear: I'm not trying to suggest that current SMN isn't severely-lacking "meat on its bones" compared to most other Jobs, both current and historical.

Rather, I'm saying that SMN's radical simplicity may be allowing a lot of players to realize that they maaaaaaybe... honestly... don't reeeeeally mind having other priorities in life than "mastering" an FFXIV rotation...

...and that they actually kiiiiiiiinda appreciate being able to just take a Job into even complex content, and focus nearly-entirely on the content itself, rather than constantly-fighting the encounter timeline and mechanics just to try to desperately-resist having their overly-elaborate and excessively-delicate rotation grotesquely-deranged, or otherwise have their attention constantly pulled between rotational details and encounter details.

...But, because FFXIV has, for so long, included a huge portion of its "player validation" inside "rotational challenge and execution", it feels... [weird/bad/embarrassing/confusing/wrong/etc] to "allow yourself" to like a Job that has so relatively-little to worry about or be distracted by, and enables you to focus almost-entirely on the content itself.

...Like, yeah, SMN feels completely-empty (to me, anyway) when practiced on a Striking Dummy.

But maybe it's just heralding a new era of FFXIV design, where the "challenge" is focused nearly-entirely on specific encounter mechanics, and the design focus is pulled aggressively-away from internal Job mechanics, to the point where you're not expected to find much "meat" in a passive Striking Dummy rotation.

And maybe a lot of people are... actually finding themselves completely fine with that approach — as much as it may seem like absolute anathema to the standards set during Heavensward and Stormblood.

[Shurrikhan]

...To be very clear: I'm not trying to suggest that current SMN isn't severely-lacking "meat on its bones" compared to most other Jobs, both current and historical.

Rather, I'm saying that SMN's radical simplicity may be allowing a lot of players to realize that they maaaaaaybe... honestly... don't reeeeeally mind having other priorities in life than "mastering" an FFXIV rotation...

...and that they actually kiiiiiiiinda appreciate being able to just take a Job into even complex content, and focus nearly-entirely on the content itself, rather than constantly-fighting the encounter timeline and mechanics just to try to desperately-resist having their overly-elaborate and excessively-delicate rotation grotesquely-deranged, or otherwise have their attention constantly pulled between rotational details and encounter details.

Fair enough, but in that case SMN should only be putting out roughly what that level of effort would equate to on another job, with at most a slightly higher skew to reward-for-effort in exchange for the lower ceiling to both. No one should feel like they are obliged to switch to SMN simply because, for anyone not interested in "mastering" even a basic but not quite barebone rotation, it puts out significantly more reward for the amount of effort put in.

That's just imbalance, plain and simple, and I don't think it's worth pandering to that group of players (who want disproportionate reward for effort put in so they can perform higher than they otherwise would by abusing an imbalance) over the breadth of seemingly real choices available to the playerbase as a whole.

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Aside/In General:

To my mind, SMN should have a below average button count but above average number of actions (across even just its current 3-5 summons/trances, depending on how you define them), below average complexity in any particular rotational string and in GCD-sync but above average complexity in macrorotation and utilization of utility.

I love the aesthetic. I just don't want to be bored out of my mind actually leveraging it. I don't particularly give a damn about any checklists of button count or standard elements (gauges, DoTs, duration-ed buffs, Leaden Fist equivalents, etc.) to track, but to my mind it definitely needs to flesh itself out. Tremendously.

SMN at 90 feels like a level 60 job. And so, I want the rest of its kit. And I suspect it'd take at least some arguably 'fundamental' changes to give it space enough to do that.

[Dels]

[...]

However, in other cases I honestly wonder if EW SMN might secretly be taking a lot of stress and pressure off of even many "dedicated" players... but it's just "taboo" for them to publicly-admit so in the sorts of "pride in the game" circles and communities that end up becoming their social networks.

Well, also, remember that this is a team game. It's not just about my fun with the job or the pride I feel doing the complex rotation - It's also that I don't want to make mistakes. I am going to make more mistakes on mechanics and cause more wipes during our prog if I play the harder job. If I play summoner, I guarantee that I can just focus on the mechanics and never have to worry about a rotation, so I will hold people back less. It's hard to justify going for the harder option unless you're really confident you won't waste people's time. If it was a single player game I might try it from the start.

[Ivtrix]

Well, also, remember that this is a team game. It's not just about my fun with the job or the pride I feel doing the complex rotation - It's also that I don't want to make mistakes. I am going to make more mistakes on mechanics and cause more wipes during our prog if I play the harder job. If I play summoner, I guarantee that I can just focus on the mechanics and never have to worry about a rotation, so I will hold people back less. It's hard to justify going for the harder option unless you're really confident you won't waste people's time. If it was a single player game I might try it from the start.

Semi-counterpoint: if you reduce the barrier to entry via smn being exceptionally easy, good luck finding a group with 1 caster slot available and far too many smn looking for groups.

[Shurrikhan]

Semi-counterpoint: if you reduce the barrier to entry via smn being exceptionally easy, good luck finding a group with 1 caster slot available and far too many smn looking for groups.

I mean, given how little contextual difficulty has been left to melee, that disparity needs to be addressed regardless. There's no reason for melee to stand so far above RDM.

If Verraise is truly considered the issue, then finally give it a real cost. At present, RDM can sustain 1 roughly every 72 seconds, iirc, so long as they neither die nor lose Lucid Dreaming potential uptime, but the largest issue is that it enters the fight with 3.33 charges of the damn thing via that 10000 starting MP.

[Ivtrix]

I mean, given how little contextual difficulty has been left to melee, that disparity needs to be addressed regardless. There's no reason for melee to stand so far above RDM.

If Verraise is truly considered the issue, then finally give it a real cost. At present, RDM can sustain 1 roughly every 72 seconds, iirc, so long as they neither die nor lose Lucid Dreaming potential uptime, but the largest issue is that it enters the fight with 3.33 charges of the damn thing via that 10000 starting MP.

I vehemently disagree with the developers theorized reasons why all ranged aside BLM do 10% less damage than melee in current fight design, but people in here have and will argue that it is a good thing and I am tired of beating my head against a wall.

[Shurrikhan]

I vehemently disagree with the developers theorized reasons why all ranged aside BLM do 10% less damage than melee in current fight design, but people in here have and will argue that it is a good thing and I am tired of beating my head against a wall.

It's plenty fair to consider that BLM, having a higher skill ceiling than other ranged (or even most melee), should also have that much higher a damage ceiling than other ranged (or, again, even most melee).

Doesn't mean Red Mage needs to be a noticeable tier behind Reaper, though, or that BRD and DNC should be behind MCH (even if only minutely).

Summoner should have its ceiling increased, roughly, to that of RDM or even both increased that bit further towards that of BLM (RDM is in some cases not too far behind already), rezzes should probably be constrained a bit more (less of an impact of/from entering combat with 4 minutes worth of Raises' net MP costs [in net gain from Lucid Dreaming while rotating]), physical ranged actually allowed a decent bit of ceiling in turn and brought up very near to the rest, etc.