Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Ivtrix]

Forgot to post to this comment, because is a specific point that needs attention - I think is flawed beyond the job's structure.

FFXIV is not good in explaining mid to advanced mechanics. Basic stuff like the concept of weaving. I remember back in my sprout days, it took be quite a while to realize what weaving was, or even that double-weaving was a thing.

Some stuff you may eventually figure out, maybe through someone's criticism, like that (sadly) is important to follow the 2min meta. Or even more obscure things, like that the cagetory difference between a 'spell' and an 'ability' is important.

I'll never forget that I spent a LONG time thinking that Fey Illumination buffed all of my actions, and after reading a comment somewhere I realized that the healing boost was exactly for the actions I shouldn't be optimally using (gcds) and not everything, because the tooltip's wording is extremely vague. It says that buffs healing magic... How a new player is supposed to know that 'abilities' is not considered magic even though they are presented visually like magic spells? Please someone correct if I'm wrong and this changed, but I don't think this is explained anywhere in the game.

It’s a big failure on the devs & the games part, especially when higher level content is balanced around it. Maybe it’s already assumed that players participating in that content will already seek 3rd party resources, but it should really be built into the game.

[Renathras]

FFXIV is not good in explaining mid to advanced mechanics. Basic stuff like the concept of weaving.

Agreed. Weaving is such a basic concept, people barely even explain it, since most everyone just assumes everyone knows it.

I didn't figure out the difference until one day I noticed playing PotD how some floors would lock me out of Abilities but I could still use my normal spells, and how the Pacification blocks Spells/Weaponskills but I could still use those other abilities.

It was after that I looked through the spell list and noticed that keyword the first time.

At this point, I still didn't know what an "oGCD" was nor the concept of "weaving"; I only knew that "Ability" meant "think I can use instantly even while the other weaponskills/spells cannot be used yet, and which I can use while pacified" and "Spell" meant "thing that is not an ability".

Shortly thereafter, I was watching guides about SCH (this was in SB, I'd been playing since around 2.4) and they talked about weaving. That was the first time I realized "Tetra doesn't just cast faster, it ignores the casting que and goes off instantly where those 'Spell' things do not." I had noticed in the past Tetra seemed "more responsive", which was my wording for it at the time, but I didn't understand WHY that was, which was that it ignored/was exempt from the GCD. That wasn't really apparent. What was apparent was I could "use it whenever", and it was "more responsive". Of course, it was also "more responsive" than Benediction...which is an oGCD, so that one just made things even more confusing.

Coming from WoW in 2013, "Instant Cast" just meant "Instant Cast" to me. The idea there were "Instant Cast" "Spells" (Regen) and "Instant Cast" "Abilities" (Tetragrammaton) is just not a natural thing for someone to just know. "Instant Cast" on one thing and "Instant Cast" on another thing doesn't really explain the distinction to the player. The game has the Spell/Weaponskill and Ability tags, but I doubt many people notice them until they have a specific reason to look through their abilities for them, as I did after PotD and my own observation.

The thing is, understanding oGCDs isn't just important, it's mandatory to come anywhere close to optimal in the game. Even just doing ABC (Always Be Casting), but treating oGCDs like normal spells (waiting 2.5 sec to cast them, then waiting 2.5 sec to cast anything else) is massively suboptimal. For Healers, it's super important since optimization is based on using oGCD heals weaving between damage spells, but this requires you know what an oGCD is and what weaving is. For DPS, it's essential for your opener and burst phases, and not doing it can be a pretty massive DPS difference, sometimes 30+%. And, of course, knowing that buffs that affect "Healing Magic" and "Healing Abilities" are two completely different buffs, with the former not affecting the latter but the latter does affect the former. The game never explains that, either.

It's hugely important, fundamental, even, to understanding Job design and the combat system. But there's pretty much no way for most players to know this without hours/years of playing or reading a guide, as the game never even draws the player's attention to the Weaponskill/Spell/Ability tag to tell them that it's significant. It's not mentioned in Job guides in the game, the help tooltips, Hall of the Novice, nothing.

Clearly, Bob should play SMN and Greg should play RDM (or SMN).

This isn't a good reason to go to the proposed SMN. In both cases, Bob is going to have a lower performance than Greg, thus Greg is "rewarded" for his "hard work". What's the problem? That Bob is still able to come close to him and thus still allowed to do content without being blacklisted? Should Bob, playing a videogame, not be allowed to do content in said videogame, because...why? He's specifically playing a Job that allows him to contribute meaningfully to the team. What's the problem? If Greg is happy just being challenged, then he can play RDM, Bob can play SMN, and everyone's happy. If Greg doesn't feel challenged enough, he can also try out BLM.

Where is the problem here?

But have you even thought about Bob? Bob has feelings too, you know. What if he liked RDM for it's appearance, visuals and so on?

I'm not sure why you're saying this. All that argument would suggest is that RDM needs to be made easier.

It's also not "only natural for even casual gamers to min max everything". That they don't min max everything is part of what makes them casuals, bu the standard definition used for that term, anyway.

Taking "I would like to be able to learn, grow, and gain skill" to mean "you just want to lord over other people" is the most...

So, what's insisting repeatedly people who enjoy SMN are just lazy Pieces Of Snozberry who want carries and output that they aren't deserving of?

While it's easy to make mocking caricatures of people, they're generally just that, caricatures. And if one engages in them, then said one isn't really one to complain when other people use them...except in this case, she didn't even use it.

What's his reason for playing? Because he wants to be good and that's how he has fun, right? Then "playing the job should be the reward". That was literally what was said.

Thats fine for casual play but the moment you add an enrage timer everything changes. Thats the only time that balance actually matters.

So again, what's the problem with Greg playing RDM or SMN and Bob playing SMN?

If Enrages are a problem, then surely we want SMN as an option for Bob so he can still complete the content and contribute meaningfully to his team, do we not?

It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.

The problem with this is the justification used by people to increase the skill expression always seems to end up "the players not playing to the optimal level should be doing much less damage". The implication isn't "we want a Job that allows for skill expression" from that. The implication from that justification is "we want to be able to very clearly dominate/lord over people who don't play at our level". At best, it's wanting to look better at the expense of other people looking worse (that is "best" since in that case, it's not an active desire people do worse, it's just a requirement for one to look better).

If the argument was truly just to be able to have skill expression, then it wouldn't matter how much or how little more damage they were doing. A 100% Energy Drain SCH vs one who doesn't even have ED on their hotbars is ridiculously small. The difference is 300 potency per minute, peanuts. But some people really enjoy it for that reason. No one's contesting the idea of having skill expression. People are contesting what that skill expression should look like, if SMN has it already (some people think it does; you may not believe so, but "skill expression" is not an objective measurement, so it is ultimately subjective), and how big the gap from the floor to ceiling in damage output should be.

No one has an issue with people wanting some expression of skill.

People have an issue with wanting said expression of skill to translate into a huge gulf in damage done. Besides which, it causes a huge problem with encounter design. In order for the "you can play badly and still clear content" to work with a large damage gap, then the encounters must be tuned for the skill floor players. That means skilled players will find even Savages and Ultimates trivial to complete. On the other hand, if you tune it to where the Enrages require the skilled players damage output, now "you can play badly and still clear content" is out the window. It cannot be both at the same time unless the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling is small.

Of course, the other alternative is just to have at least 1 simple Job and at least 1 complex Job, and let the players play as the one they find best meets their desired skill level.

I have a concern that arguments about "skill expression" and "skill ceiling" really don't have an objective standard, and inevitably end up being something like:

I think this is a big piece of the issue.

Part of it is that people like arguing against strawmen and caricatures - they're much easier to beat in a debate than actual Human beings making actual arguments. Look at Gaius' reply mentioning me. It's completely wrong and probably somewhere deep down he knows it, but he says it and people support him saying it. The people who like saying that people wanting a low gap in damage want to be lazy and get carries...but suddenly are offended when they're treated to a caricature of their own desires as "wanting to lord over" other people. Suddenly caricatures are beyond the pale...until they're ready to call people braindead lazy babies again, then it will become okay again.

But setting aside those people:

The issue really is that it's subjective, and that not everyone wants the same skill ceiling even if it somehow wasn't.

If everyone in this game really wanted skill expression, we'd be drowning in BLMs. They'd be everywhere. All those BLM players would be frustrated that some of them have to play BRD (the...most chaotic?...Ranged) or MNK (Melee), because they really just want to play on the super hard BLM because they enjoy the gameplay and skill expression so much, that even if BLM was the lowest DPS Job, they'd all still be playing it. We'd be looking everywhere to see someone who has "Main Class:" as anything other than "Black Mage Lv 90". Yet not even the people pushing for SMN change are BLM mains.

...we don't see that in the playerbase as a whole, either. We see the exact opposite, with even very highly skilled players swapping to SMN in a heartbeat.

That doesn't seem to show a playerbase - even of the Ultimate raider type - that wants this mythical high skill expression Job..

And the change to nerf SMN doesn't seem to be because some people want to just express their awesome skill for the fun thrill of it. That they want to do more damage suggest they either want other people to be unviable and unable to clear content or alternatively, that they want people to notice when they're doing so much better than their friend Bob and how much better than Bob they are, which requires the gap be really big for people to notice...and, of course, that people need to be running illegal software against the TOS to even see the difference, since there's no way anyone can tell in a boss fight directly.

.

People need to just understand that not everyone thinks like them. FFXIV doesn't have specs like WoW, so that means Jobs are like specs. That's just the way it is.

If you want a super high skill ceiling caster, it's right there as BLM.

If you aren't playing that, that's your choice.

But you might want SMN's aesthetic with a higher skill ceiling. That's fair. But others might want BLM's aesthetic with a lower skill ceiling. Are you willing to offer them that? Probably not.

There are, absolutely, some people who want to put a dipping bird on their keyboard and get carries. There are also, absolutely, some people who want big damage gaps explicitly so they can show everyone how much better they are and point and laugh at the people they're leaving in the dust, gaining notoriety at the direct expense of others.

...but these are (I hope) the minority.

Thing is, FFXIV's Job system doesn't really allow much besides an all or nothing. Either a Job is easy or it's not. And if a Job has to have a lot of extra damage to "reward" people who want the harder skill ceiling, then that makes it non-viable anyway, meaning "you can play bad and still clear" goes out the window.

The only solution that works is to have at least 1 Job be easy and at least 1 Job be hard. The only alternative to that is for a Job to be hard, but where playing it "at a base level" does 99% of the damage. That is, where getting that last 1% requires massive skill and work, but both are entirely viable. But then the people who say they're just in it for "skill expression" will complain that they aren't being "rewarded with damage".

So that leaves us with the other option: At least 1 easy, at least 1 hard, let people pick the one that matches their desired level of dedication.

So then we're at an impasse and the only solution that gives everyone something is if some Jobs have high and some Jobs have low. As Eorzian_username said:

I really need to stress that "Oh, it's okay, you can suck and still clear content!" is actually not a satisfying "compromise" to a lot of players.

[Aravell]

The problem with this is the justification used by people to increase the skill expression always seems to end up "the players not playing to the optimal level should be doing much less damage". The implication isn't "we want a Job that allows for skill expression" from that. The implication from that justification is "we want to be able to very clearly dominate/lord over people who don't play at our level". At best, it's wanting to look better at the expense of other people looking worse (that is "best" since in that case, it's not an active desire people do worse, it's just a requirement for one to look better).

I can see your point, but the other side also has a point. Skill expression should have a gap, perhaps not a huge one, but it should at least be there.

Let's use the example from above, so we have Bob and Greg, let's say Greg is performing at 90% efficiency and Bob is performing at 70%. If the skill expression gap is about, let's say 8%, Bob will lose some damage but will still be performing at 62% efficiency, this would not gate him from any content, he still has enough skill to clear extremes, even savage, perhaps not week 1 savage, but he can still clear it.

It's also my opinion that clearing hard content should require some form of skill. Take any other game for example, playing on hard mode would require you to at least understand the game and perform gameplay at a decent level, and that's exactly what savage is, a hard mode. People who want to clear savage fast will put in the time to learn and get better, people who don't, they can still clear savage, just a little bit later when they have more gear. No one is really being gatekept out of any content if there's a noticeable gap in skill, 5-10% won't hurt anyone. I understand that people want to do as good as possible, but is it fair to be just as skilled as someone who has put in way more hours in that same job?

[Shougun]

I think there can be complex jobs, for players who like that this is important, but I don't think those jobs should get inflated damage by default. I would say their kit potentials is where they should or should not be taxed, and it's important to include if the job taxes itself to do that (for example using your fast cast, or burning damage, clemency is not the same as nascent flash, etc), and honestly even if it does come back to damage the first thought should be balancing for fun (and different audiences). Unfortunately as our jobs are essentially 'specs' like you might see a shadow priest or holy priest in WoW that therefore means if you like the black mage theme but don't like the mechanics... tough, too bad lol. I do think there should be effective easy jobs, as well as effective complex jobs- neither made worse or better assuming a skilled player plays both.

One thing that always makes me smirk a little (little chocobo turd I am lol) is when I see more complex, highly theme'd, hardcore players blaming casuals on lack of job identity. Yet when the ice mages are clearly the casual you don't pay my subs, they were going to do whatever they wanted anyways- there is no gameplay value destroying a job so 1 button sam can still somehow mess up their rotation and be surprised they can summon a phoenix. It's clearly only valuable to homogenize due to the bean count at end game. We could very well have greater imbalanced jobs for MSQ content, wouldn't matter we're going to clear easy street anyways- you can't do that in tighter content without hell escaping.

Sure 1 button sam may want an 'easy' to play job, but that's honestly separate from interesting to play or high / low skill range. Where even that skill range is not really worth addressing at MSQ if the content is designed to be essentially completed by a third or even a quarter of the group. In terms of fun / flavor being dumped, again that would be a high end content issue (or devs allocating challenging tasks to easier controls). As seen more easily in say MOBAs where we can quickly template 4 buttons, some with two passives lol- easy characters being OP, hard characters under performing in the wrong hands, etc.

I think a lot are playing SMN currently because it's the most logical job (it's also probably the easiest), but also, imo, many FF fans are probably going "SMN, I AM A SMN!" lol. Chicken nugget, hot dorrito, and old booger* SMN had quality gameplay, imo, but felt awful to watch (imo lol). Now you've got a smooth experience with fantastic visuals. Already said before that I think the job is insanely simple prior to 86 and would like to see that brought in sooner, so I'm not like "perfect" but I can say someone who is loving PvP flavor and wishing more of our kits were unique.. that SMN (86+) is one of my more favorite to play currently, even though it is mentally the least challenging (purty lights, logical steps).

I actually really dislike playing BLM in roulette because the job changes too much and I don't play it enough to remember how many flares, converts, or whatever is most optimal. Annoys me to play as it syncs around lol. Ninja probably my second least favorite, I can totally do the ninjitsu thing I just dont like to. That said I don't want BLM or NIN to change because I didn't love some aspect.

*The chibi are kind of cute, but I was rather flabbergasted in 2.0 when they chose to represent one of the most visually grandiose and gorgeous jobs in gaming history with half formed chibi sprites. So no hate to whoever made them, but definitely had me scratchin my noggin on why they originally made SMN. Fun warlock, super iffy SMN.


Also someone pour one out for all the ranged physical that get nerfed damage while the melee have huge circles to play with these days lol.


Anyway tl;dr- I don't think challenge of a job should be bound to output. I don't mind the idea that each job has some room for good decisions and bad decisions though, but that is independent of the general concept of harder job does bigger brrrr on boss's face .

[Deo14]

Clearly, Bob should play SMN and Greg should play RDM (or SMN).

[omitted]

I'm not sure why you're saying this. All that argument would suggest is that RDM needs to be made easier.

It's also not "only natural for even casual gamers to min max everything". That they don't min max everything is part of what makes them casuals, bu the standard definition used for that term, anyway.

I've explained basically same thing in my next comment, right after I posted my masterpiece, here's link:

snip

Anyways, the "Greg should play RDM, and Bob SMN" is meta gaming, which by your own words, casual gamers don't do. Neither Greg or Bob should be pushed towards one job because it offers skill expression and other don't, they should freely pick whichever they like more because of visuals and job fantasy. But that's the problem, current state will make only Bob happy if he's playing SMN, while Greg won't be happy playing either of the two jobs. Bob will be sad playing RDM because it's "too hard", and Greg will not enjoy RDM because he needs to put in much more effort than SMN for same outcome, and if he plays SMN, he won't find any skill expression in here.

As for "RDM should be made easier", I suggest you to make a thread in DPS forums and ask RDMs how will they feel about that. It won't be small changes, to make RDM on the same level as SMN, you would realistically need to remove dualcast and make nearly all spells instacasts, remove melee and so on.

Even casuals in le**ue of le**ends and DotA 2 use guides to help them play optimally and min max everything. Key difference is that those guides are directly in the game and made by community. So yes, FFXIV should definitely make learning things in game much easier, but at the same time, it's important to acknowledge that finding optimal rotation with guide explaining whole job takes half a minute.

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.

No, they're asking to change the job to give it more pointless busy work and making it more complicated for no good reason. Summoner is being played more than ever because it has less busy work and is less complicated than other Jobs. Why should Summoners, the majority enjoying it as is, be told that the Job they like is "wrong" and should be made just as complicated and full of busy work as other Jobs? It isn't fair to them at all. If players want more busy work or more complicated jobs then they have options. Don't take this away from those that enjoy Summoner just because the more complicated/busy work jobs have issues that the Summoner doesn't have.

[VentVanitas]

Why should Summoners, the majority enjoying it as is, be told that the Job they like is "wrong" and should be made just as complicated and full of busy work as other Jobs? It isn't fair to them at all.

you know whats also unfair? players that enjoyed pre-EW SMN being alienated by the rework and having no near-equivalent job to turn to. lmao

[GaiusDrakon]

you know whats also unfair? players that enjoyed pre-EW SMN being alienated by the rework and having no near-equivalent job to turn to. lmao

I mean it's a cockroach who's glad that the apple pie fell to the floor so it and its cockroach friend can savor the pie near its nest instead of having to climb the table for once.

[Ivtrix]

No, they're asking to change the job to give it more pointless busy work and making it more complicated for no good reason. Summoner is being played more than ever because it has less busy work and is less complicated than other Jobs. Why should Summoners, the majority enjoying it as is, be told that the Job they like is "wrong" and should be made just as complicated and full of busy work as other Jobs? It isn't fair to them at all. If players want more busy work or more complicated jobs then they have options. Don't take this away from those that enjoy Summoner just because the more complicated/busy work jobs have issues that the Summoner doesn't have.

You realize no one is asking for button bloat right? Busy work for the sake of busy work sucks. What people are saying is that the current design of summoner fundamentally breaks the dynamic of the caster role.

You seem to be taking issue since you so strongly cling to the current summoner that you’re taking this as a personal attack. Chill out. The job is going to be changing in less than a year anyways with the coming of 7.0

What people don’t like about SMNs current design is that it’s literally only a bread and butter job. There are no optional side dishes that you can experiment with to enhance your experience. No rice, no meat, no cheese, no sauces. Bread and butter only.

You seem to think that there are complicated jobs in this game. There are not. Every single job in this game is very easy to play at its core values. Even BLM, which the community needs to stop putting on a pedestal thinking that it takes 500iq to cast fire until mana empty then cast ice until mana full. The difficulty comes from job optimization which for most players like you, is optional content. It’s not needed. I don’t expect a RDM who doesn’t raid savage to even be aware that you need to acceleration once per melee combo otherwise fletch or contre come off cooldown while you are in the middle of a cast. It’s a very minute optimization that outside of savage is 100% optional to perform. Another good example is RDM holding its first recast of contre for 2 seconds so that it naturally aligns with fletche at all points thereafter. SMN does not have anything in its kit that allows you to do that. Because of this its entire damage is just baked into its bread and butter.

There is very little that differentiates an average SMN with an elite SMN, assuming both players can roll their GCD.

[Aravell]

You seem to think that there are complicated jobs in this game. There are not. Every single job in this game is very easy to play at its core values. Even BLM, which the community needs to stop putting on a pedestal thinking that it takes 500iq to cast fire until mana empty then cast ice until mana full.

This has always been strange. I don't understand why so many people hold BLM on a high pedestal when the standard rotation is so simple and easy to execute at a base level. Just rotate fire and ice, keep thunder up, don't overcap polyglot.