Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Rokke]

this thread has a whole lot of "I don't want a button for a sake of a button!1!!"s as if baha summon, baha enkindle, and deathflare had reasons to be 3 separate buttons lol


reworking even just one of them to be worth a hotbar slot would be an improvement.

[SieyaM]

I've made yet another masterpiece today, which visually showcases the problem:


Chart only has damage as Y axis, skill expression is distance between skill ceiling and skill floor

Once again, we have Bob and Greg. Bob isn't very good and Greg is kinda decent. When Bob plays RDM, he does significantly less damage than Greg. He puts in less effort, so that's fine, right? But what if both Bob and Greg switch to SMN? Greg still deals very similar damage, while he does not need to put in as much effort. What about Bob? He deals significantly higher damage, even though he puts in same effort as he did when he played RDM. It's so significant, that the difference between him and Greg is very tiny.

So why would Bob go back to RDM, when he can just relax and play SMN and deal more damage? Why should Greg keep trying his best while playing RDM, when he could just play SMN and deal same damage for less effort?

Both jobs must deal similar potential max damage, otherwise they will be getting kicked out of parties. So there are only 2 ways how to make both RDM and SMN good picks. You either make RDM as brain-dead as SMN (I'm sure RDM mains will be happy about that) or just simply allow more skill expression for SMN. This will make Bob deal less damage, however that is simply fair.

I'm not putting in my personal suggestions how to increase the skill expression for SMN, but it does not necessarily mean drastic changes or adding button bloat just for the sake of adding bloat. There were some good suggestions from other people however.

I would say that Greg there should continue playing RDM because, as people often like to say on here, he likes the challenge and the complexity. If that's what he finds fun and truly what he is looking for and not a reason to lord over other players, than playing the job should be the reward.

[Semirhage]

I would say that Greg there should continue playing RDM because, as people often like to say on here, he likes the challenge and the complexity. If that's what he finds fun and truly what he is looking for and not a reason to lord over other players, than playing the job should be the reward.

Taking "I would like to be able to learn, grow, and gain skill" to mean "you just want to lord over other people" is the most Harrison Bergeron thing I've ever heard.

You are 100% allowed to not want to improve at something. There's a tradeoff though, and it's not a difficult one to make. You make it all the time with other hobbies. You look at someone who's put a lot of time and effort in and go, "wow! This person's really good at this (activity)!" But not video games. Video games are a special beast where we have legions of toxic casuals who 1. don't want to improve (fine), and 2. want to make sure other people can't either, because their seething resentment of the rewards that skill brings get projected onto other people in the form of "lording".

[Deo14]

I would say that Greg there should continue playing RDM because, as people often like to say on here, he likes the challenge and the complexity. If that's what he finds fun and truly what he is looking for and not a reason to lord over other players, than playing the job should be the reward.

But have you even thought about Bob? Bob has feelings too, you know. What if he liked RDM for it's appearance, visuals and so on? Bob is somewhat informed, and knows he will deal less damage on RDM, so he's hesitant. What if Greg likes SMN for it's job fantasy? Greg likes challenge and complexity, but SMN doesn't offer any. So should he start playing SMN or keep playing RDM? I would say that playing job whose job fantasy/visuals/theme you like should be prioritized over metagaming, but current SMN goes against this idea. Sure, player does not need to meta game, but it's only natural for even casual gamers to min max everything. And if game allows them to, they will do it.

[Ivtrix]

I would say that Greg there should continue playing RDM because, as people often like to say on here, he likes the challenge and the complexity. If that's what he finds fun and truly what he is looking for and not a reason to lord over other players, than playing the job should be the reward.

Thats fine for casual play but the moment you add an enrage timer everything changes. Thats the only time that balance actually matters.

[Aravell]

It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.

[Payotz]

It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.

Yeah not really a fan of that implication either. Sure there are some ego andies, but more often than not, ego andies don't want anything to change because they're good at the current system, and a skill ceiling and variable gameplay would actually ruin that for them. Like hell, a lot of parse heavy people don't like BLM just because it doesn't fit cleanly with the 2 min burst meta, even though BLM has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game.

Ego and Parse Andies don't want additional uncontrollable factors in between pulls. They don't like RNG, they don't want variety. They just want the same consistent, simple gameplay, over and over again, which is honestly what we have now job design-wise.

Like if I want to lord over people, I'd be lobbying against gameplay variety, and I'd just go around and call people that complain about it bad, or "don't understand" and tell them to play another game.

[Eorzean_username]

I think part of the reason these discussions tend to end up with people constantly talking past each other is that actual players are more complex than broad groupings properly-capture.

All of these people actually exist in FFXIV:

The player who actually gets angry if you suggest changing their "freestyle" rotation that ignores major Job mechanics and potency logic, because they're "having fun" or "roleplaying".

The player who egotistically sneers at anyone who's not optimizing their rotation in even trivial ways. Usually they communicate in a Pidgin English composed primarily of Twitch emotes and Discord emojis.

The player who's pretty damn good at their Job, but doesn't really mind if other people aren't, and just kind of chills and plays the game well with their own dedicated group of like-minded players.

The player who desperately wants to earn the social accolades that they perceive as coming from parsing fabled colours like orange and pink, but just doesn't have the inherent chops to do it, and becomes agitated and frustrated about every last optimization as a result.

They player who's not really here to parse; they just like the challenge of playing their Job well. Their parse is a side-effect of doing that, and a measurement tool, but they don't consider it a colour-coded superiority contest.

The player who really just wants to see and clear all the content, no matter how hard it is. Playing their rotation correctly is a side-effect of wanting to be able to clear difficult content, but it's not their primary reason for being here, so they're not that bothered about how easy, hard, depthy, or shallow a Job is, but instead focus on how tactically-useful it is.

The player who's just chillin'. They participate a little bit in all content. They try to read their tooltips and follow the correct rotation, but if it's too much work, practice, stress, or requires spreadsheets or timelines, they're probably not bothering. They like it when a Job feels "a little detailed", but not "too oppressive".

The player who's just kinda here for the fun fantasy world. They truly don't care if their White Mage spends most of the time Glaring, because they're not really here for the combat depth, but rather, seeing the Story, housing, etc.

...and on, and on, and on.

It's maybe not even a "sliding scale", but more like a "kaleidoscope", and basically each "tier" of complexity will end up turning on, turning off, or not bothering either way, different segments of this relatively-broad and complex population.

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What I'm trying to say is that you can certainly crank up the fabled "ceiling" on Summoner — but how much?

I believe that you'll have someone disappointed at every new "increment" of complexity — and in both directions. Because it's ultimately a very personal and subjective determination what "a good ceiling" actually is.

For example:

There are players who would be genuinely-happy if Ruby Rite and Slipstream were turned into instant casts, and Crimson Cyclone was turned into a ranged attack.

There are players who would be genuinely-happy if Summoner just had a few more failure-points, an "actual" filler phase (ie, casting), and maybe at least one "real" Gauge to manage.

There are players who would still "eh" away from Summoner unless its design reached full-sweat theoretical Black Mage tiers of complexity, like ShB SMN on cocaine.

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...I think that every time someone says, "I just want this Job to have more skill expression" (or, conversely, "I just want this Job to be less difficult to play"), it's always unconsciously-coloured by that player's very personal and subjective limits.

For example:

Let's say that Summoner damage was increased to be higher than Black Mage.

However, literally all of Summoner's actions are now 4.0s casts, and each Gem phase has a strict 16 second timer that begins when a Summon cast finishes.

That would certainly make Summoner much more challenging to play... but it would probably be abandoned by very nearly everyone. Because, while it would take "skill" to execute that rotation successfully, even dedicated players would probably find it too oppressive to be worth the trouble.

However, there would probably be, say, 10 die-hard players around the globe who would passionately enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to play "Slow Summoner" in actual content.

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I have a concern that arguments about "skill expression" and "skill ceiling" really don't have an objective standard, and inevitably end up being something like:

• Easy for me to do even without practice → "Braindead"
• Easy for me to do with a bit of practice → Poor skill ceiling
• Hard, but I can do it with practice/planning → Good skill ceiling
• Hard, but I can't do it, even with practice → "Overtuned"

...And which Job belongs in which category slides around depending on who the beholder is.

I say this because, if "skill expression" was really an objective, universal quality, Jobs like BLM and MNK seem like they would have higher play rates in higher-end content. Instead, they tend to be minority picks, even amongst seasoned players, which leads me to think that everyone has their own threshold about what kind of "skill ceiling" and "skill floor" and "skill expression", and so on, that they actually want.

To be clear, I'm not intending to mock any of those "skill" criteria, nor saying that you're wrong for considering and valuing them — I'm only trying to caution that it's probably not so simple to "Goldilocks" a given Job to the point that you actually want it to be at... and that if you manage to get it that way, it will probably end up being a personal, rather than universal, fit.

[seolhyun]

It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.

what??? how will i FEEL like a summoner if i am not smashing my gemshine button for 10 min straight!!

[Raikai]

That players should be able to figure out how to play their Jobs optimally with in-game resources. And we're not even saying all Jobs; just 1. Jobs that require extensive outside research and planning are fine to exist as well - BLM does.

Forgot to post to this comment, because is a specific point that needs attention - I think is flawed beyond the job's structure.

FFXIV is not good in explaining mid to advanced mechanics. Basic stuff like the concept of weaving. I remember back in my sprout days, it took be quite a while to realize what weaving was, or even that double-weaving was a thing.

Some stuff you may eventually figure out, maybe through someone's criticism, like that (sadly) is important to follow the 2min meta. Or even more obscure things, like that the cagetory difference between a 'spell' and an 'ability' is important.

I'll never forget that I spent a LONG time thinking that Fey Illumination buffed all of my actions, and after reading a comment somewhere I realized that the healing boost was exactly for the actions I shouldn't be optimally using (gcds) and not everything, because the tooltip's wording is extremely vague. It says that buffs healing magic... How a new player is supposed to know that 'abilities' is not considered magic even though they are presented visually like magic spells? Please someone correct if I'm wrong and this changed, but I don't think this is explained anywhere in the game.