Anyone else think caster has suffered this expansion? (hopes for the future)

[Lyth]

It sounds like what casters really want to see here is a major simplifying rework on BLM. If it doesn't happen right at the outset of next expansion, it probably will happen in the wake of insecurity over the next Caster job to be introduced.

As sad as it will be, I take solace in the fact that if they do that, they can safely eliminate the artificial divide between 'physical ranged' and 'magical ranged', and put to rest this ongoing myth that occasionally stopping to 'cast' is difficult (this isn't even specific to Casters).

[Ggwppino]

I dont think it's even an argument anymore at this point that BLM is the hardest job in the game, especially in its current state where the job feels like it is being abandoned by the dynamic design of the fights. Meanwhile melees needing to pay less and less attention to positionals and the hitbox of the bosses being greater than the mariana trench.

So if everyone jumps off a bridge, so do you?
Thankfully BLM and RDM didn't get the melee-like treatment they received. Do you think melee players are happy they lost some challenges to face? (Reminding us that we are playing a video game and not afk-arena or the usual gatcha).
When choosing a caster, you know what you're getting into. Throughout traditional mmo culture, the caster is put in the position of having to sweat to get uptime, much more than melee. of course, often accompanied by very high dps to compensate for downtime phases, but due to the game design that the designers want, they cannot allow it: mathematically the best comp must include 2 melee and 2 ranged to push players to be balanced (especially since there are 5 melees and if they had to compete for a single raid spot they would scramble).

As sad as it will be, I take solace in the fact that if they do that, they can safely eliminate the artificial divide between 'physical ranged' and 'magical ranged', and put to rest this ongoing myth that occasionally stopping to 'cast' is difficult (this isn't even specific to Casters).

Well, it sure activates the player's brain. However, you cannot compare perpetual movement with movement planning. Especially when movement planning also involves millimetric prepositioning during boss timer to waste less uptime.

[SilversLyu]

So if everyone jumps off a bridge, so do you?
Thankfully BLM and RDM didn't get the melee-like treatment they received. Do you think melee players are happy they lost some challenges to face? (Reminding us that we are playing a video game and not afk-arena or the usual gatcha).
When choosing a caster, you know what you're getting into. Throughout traditional mmo culture, the caster is put in the position of having to sweat to get uptime, much more than melee. of course, often accompanied by very high dps to compensate for downtime phases, but due to the game design that the designers want, they cannot allow it: mathematically the best comp must include 2 melee and 2 ranged to push players to be balanced (especially since there are 5 melees and if they had to compete for a single raid spot they would scramble).


Well, it sure activates the player's brain. However, you cannot compare perpetual movement with movement planning. Especially when movement planning also involves millimetric prepositioning during boss timer to waste less uptime.

I am not advocating for casualizing the game or taking away the difficulty of the jobs, make no mistake. But is it the definition of fun to shoot yourself in the foot and play against your own job/the current fights that are designed to punish traditional casters even more and reward mobility a lot? Saying Blackmage is a challenge is no argument, when the job is struggling way more than the rest and basically playing against the game. It can be tedious and rough, is this balance? Well if that is your definition of fun, more power to you. Meanwhile SMN players be like "no thoughts, head empty" and get rewarded tenfold, being optimized without optimization really. Where is the proportionality? And again I am not for casualizing, but for a more balanced approach.

[Lyth]

Well, it sure activates the player's brain. However, you cannot compare perpetual movement with movement planning. Especially when movement planning also involves millimetric prepositioning during boss timer to waste less uptime.

Have you noticed that whenever there is an 'uptime' strat, the tacit implication is 'melee uptime'? That type of millimetric spatial decision-making that you describe between having your autos/GCD and death loses becomes significantly less important when you're doing dps from the next arena over.

Casts are a temporal problem, not a spatial one (and again, they're not unique to casters). When is it safe to cast? When do you move before setting up the next cast? Can you interpose instant abilities/actions to give you time for movement? I think if it's that much of a big deal, then perhaps give Physical Ranged occasional bowmage casts to set up a sniper shot or something, and mix in some proc gameplay on both to let players juggle around their GCDs good measure. I think all roles have room for skill expression, if the content is appropriately designed for it. But we shouldn't be complaining about the stuff that actually makes the jobs interesting as if it's holding us back from doing more damage. These challenges are the entire point for playing in the first place.

[Ggwppino]

I am not advocating for casualizing the game or taking away the difficulty of the jobs, make no mistake. But is it the definition of fun to shoot yourself in the foot and play against your own job/the current fights that are designed to punish traditional casters even more and reward mobility a lot? Saying Blackmage is a challenge is no argument, when the job is struggling way more than the rest and basically playing against the game. It can be tedious and rough, is this balance? Well if that is your definition of fun, more power to you. Meanwhile SMN players be like "no thoughts, head empty" and get rewarded tenfold, being optimized without optimization really. Where is the proportionality? And again I am not for casualizing, but for a more balanced approach.

but the "fight against the class" is the gameplay of the caster. If the caster doesn't have to move and think because the boss is a dummy, it would just be keystroke spam, it wouldn't be fun.
On the smn I totally agree, I challenge you to find a main smn of the older expansions that is completely happy and satisfied with this iteration, they stole a decent job and replaced it with a physical ranged with no resources to manage, no gameplay that would feature, with no leveling progress but a single caster combo. It clearly shouldn't be in the role of caster, but it clearly shouldn't exist at all (it would be rather unfair even for a phys ranged)

Have you noticed that whenever there is an 'uptime' strat, the tacit implication is 'melee uptime'? That type of millimetric spatial decision-making that you describe between having your autos/GCD and death loses becomes significantly less important when you're doing dps from the next arena over.

Casts are a temporal problem, not a spatial one (and again, they're not unique to casters). When is it safe to cast? When do you move before setting up the next cast? Can you interpose instant abilities/actions to give you time for movement? I think if it's that much of a big deal, then perhaps give Physical Ranged occasional bowmage casts to set up a sniper shot or something, and mix in some proc gameplay on both to let players juggle around their GCDs good measure. I think all roles have room for skill expression, if the content is appropriately designed for it. But we shouldn't be complaining about the stuff that actually makes the jobs interesting as if it's holding us back from doing more damage. These challenges are the entire point for playing in the first place.

indeed, strats are for melees, not casters. But this is due to the simple fact that melees have an exclusively spatial uptime problem, since they are melee, and not temporal, therefore easily solvable with strats and therefore guarantee that the melee follows its rotation constantly. The caster on the other hand can deeply vary his rotation according to the timer and can position himself in the best possible way to be able to reduce or cancel the downtime and this is the fun of the caster: not having the rotation deeply static and therefore adapting it to the fight , giving great satisfaction when you feel you have found the best solution.
Furthermore, the caster must also think about where to position himself and to pre-position himself because the movement between one cast and another is limited, if you preposition yourself in one point, maybe you don't lose seconds, positioning yourself in one point instead of another maybe allows you to earn a triplecast and "earning" one/two gcd because you have to move less.

[Shiroe]

Meanwhile SMN players be like "no thoughts, head empty" and get rewarded tenfold, being optimized without optimization really. Where is the proportionality? And again I am not for casualizing, but for a more balanced approach.

Smn rota is easy, but you never played really learnt a savage / ultimate fight with Smm.., GL with Ifrit timings

[tearagion]

Smn rota is easy, but you never played really learnt a savage / ultimate fight with Smm.., GL with Ifrit timings

noooo!!!!!!! not 5.6s of casting!!!!!!!! and being in melee range for like, a second or two!!!!!! how will you fit that into 45s of dead fucking space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lyth]

...

Again, this is still inaccurate, because two out of the five melee do happen to have casts that occur during their burst windows that align with mechanics heavy moments, especially in the last two fights of this tier. There are also situations where you need to utilize dummy GCDs to play with the alignment of these moments simply because you don't have the luxury of Swiftcast as a get out of jail free card.

These are not points to complain about, though. Fights with interesting positional movements are awesome (Glaukopis jank aside). Fights that make you play on the very boundaries of an AoE to squeeze out more uptime are awesome. Fights that deliberately mess with your cast timings and make you rework your GCD order are awesome. This is seriously the best tier we've had in some time now. These are not bartering points for you to demand more dps for less effort, because SE responds by taking these fun things away from us. This is where you can take pride in mastering your chosen job and enjoy these moments for what they are.

[SilversLyu]

Smn rota is easy, but you never played really learnt a savage / ultimate fight with Smm.., GL with Ifrit timings

Seems you are projecting, it takes one to know one. Placing Slipstream and trying to figure out the best use of Ifrit is no witchcraft. This optimization, if you even can call it that is minimal compared to other jobs. I am not denying anyones efforts and successes, if one is getting better results that's great. But we shouldn't pretend that SMN is in any shape or form the benchmark for difficulty.

[Ggwppino]

Smn rota is easy, but you never played really learnt a savage / ultimate fight with Smm.., GL with Ifrit timings

Sorry, but... Lol

Again, this is still inaccurate, because two out of the five melee do happen to have casts that occur during their burst windows that align with mechanics heavy moments, especially in the last two fights of this tier. There are also situations where you need to utilize dummy GCDs to play with the alignment of these moments simply because you don't have the luxury of Swiftcast as a get out of jail free card.

Bruh, but your understand that there are a massivelly differente between a 2/3 micro cast with ez slidecast every minutes vs 40 seconds of cast every minute (already taking away instant cast with triple cast), cast of 2.5/3 seconds? Sorry, but you can't absolutly compare them. Then I don't doubt that even the melee finds itself in these dynamics at times, but the caster is ALWAYS found in this dynamic. And that's good, because the caster has this feature.