On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[SannaR]

Snips

Should both sides first response to either a liking or or a disliking of something not be heavily loaded with dickishness? Yes. Yet I'd hope you'd agree that both sides should also not try to justify said dickishness with how they have been treated in the past or present from outside areas having the same discussions.

As that normally is how threads or forums quickly devolve into entrenched toxic mud flings where even those who try to trudge out into no man's land in hopes to find solid footing in hopes it can become a fresh starting place also get the diskishness. Should both sides also respond to any disagreement as said person doing the disagreement just shot your dog? Heck no. Yet we all know that's happened more times than there than most would care to count. Or that just because a person in either camp might like or dislike something it shouldn't mean that is how they feel about the whole meal.

Let's take Brinne's wife as an example. For me I was just glad that she didn't have to give up her womb when she sought out more power as what tend to happen to women in fiction who seek to gain powerful magic or whatever have to loose the ability to have kids or a family and have to grow ice cold, cruel and heartless. Or that she secretly was the good one but Lahabreha imprisoned or as we found out killed her cause she got in the way of his ambition or was going to whistle blow on the shady stuff he was doing. How she ended up just comes off as meh for me. I didn't see her as a bad or good character from a writing standpoint, I guess. Meanwhile I still don't know how I feel about Lahabreha. Did I learn more about him? Yeah but for me at least he still felt kinda the same as to the one we had already met. Did Themis being part of the in the present part of the 3rd act bother me? A little cause I don't know how Athena pulled off whatever it is she did to pop him into the setting. But that didn't kill my enjoyment of the story or the fights. I think that if he was left out with when they placed most of the setting in for the 3rd act it'd feel strange to do so. And now I'm pretty sure I'm just rambling.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

Let's take Brinne's wife as an example. For me I was just glad that she didn't have to give up her womb when she sought out more power as what tend to happen to women in fiction who seek to gain powerful magic or whatever have to loose the ability to have kids or a family and have to grow ice cold, cruel and heartless.

whistles

This sure went places, fast. Not sure how to feel about this one, all honesty.

[Brinne]

whistles

This sure went places, fast. Not sure how to feel about this one, all honesty.

I just noticed an opportunity I missed before for WIFECHAT, the only topic that truly matters, so:

I get what Sanna is saying broadly, I think - and it's true that, and a part of my appreciation reflects that, a lot of the times, the motives for an "evil mother" figure is going to be directly, intrinsically tied to her motherhood, always painted as the core of her identity, whether in a negative or positive way. But Athena's actual reasons and motives for being evil weren't actually tied up in Erich himself - her cruelty towards him is in purely treating him as a mere method, completely incidental, disposal, and irrelevant to her internal world one way or another, which is also linked to the lack of where you'd normally see things like, yes, "womb symbolism" and the like. (Instead, Athena gets poison/parasite symbolism in Abyssos, which is absolutely awesome and I could freak out about it in an absolutely embarrassing way.)

In other words: yes, indeed. My wife is, in fact, perfect.

[SannaR]

I just noticed an opportunity I missed before for WIFECHAT, the only topic that truly matters, so:

I get what Sanna is saying broadly, I think - and it's true that, and a part of my appreciation reflects that, a lot of the times, the motives for an "evil mother" figure is going to be directly, intrinsically tied to her motherhood, always painted as the core of her identity, whether in a negative or positive way. But Athena's actual reasons and motives for being evil weren't actually tied up in Erich himself - her cruelty towards him is in purely treating him as a mere method, completely incidental, disposal, and irrelevant to her internal world one way or another, which is also linked to the lack of where you'd normally see things like, yes, "womb symbolism" and the like. (Instead, Athena gets poison/parasite symbolism in Abyssos, which is absolutely awesome and I could freak out about it in an absolutely embarrassing way.)

In other words: yes, indeed. My wife is, in fact, perfect.

Yes that's was what I was aiming at. As a lot of the time if a woman wants a butt load of power even if said power isn't going to be used for bad stuff the "agreement with the devil" normally ends up with her needing to give up the ability to have a kid as most often adoption is never given any thought. But then why should she when that deal also made her a cold hearted, emotionless, Scrooge at the start of the book type of person. Or they also take away her beauty cause for whatever dumb reason beauty is tied into a woman's want for having kids. So, when Athena got power and had a kid and her emotional state was always like that? I went good they didn't go that route and then went oh damn I like her wings.

[Brinne]

I went good they didn't go that route and then went oh damn I like her wings.

Her wings are marvelous, aren't they? I'm actually a huge fan of Athena's design in general - I love how mundane it is, how she was built out of generic character creator assets, asides from the eyes. Even her body language is "plain" and to the point, memey-head-tilt aside. When we were playing Abyssos, my friend described her as a "mousy librarian"-looking type when she was first revealed. It's perfect.

She is perfect.

And Brinne, you have far more patience than I could ever hope to have.

I've kind of gotten accustomed to the idea that the way I process stories and characters can be a little weird to some people in fandom, so if someone seems likely to be genuinely unused to that mode of thinking as opposed to operating out of bad faith, I... I try, at least! (I probably do not always succeed.) Well. I... try to try?

Good thoughts, by the way, even if I don't have much of anything to add at this point!

Perhaps SE thought if they went that direction it would make Venat too innocent when they wanted the conflict to be grey.

Given the in-universe writing around Venat - the presentation of her flashback montage, accompanied by Answers, and her 'journey' post-Sundering paralleled directly with the Warrior of Light themselves, the way other characters talk about her, the dialogue options provided, things like her minion description, and even things like, in Q&A, Yoshi-P mentioning that one of the goals was to "show she wasn't a bad guy," my impression is honestly the opposite.

They were trying to make Venat as "white" as possible, but one of the main strategies they were relying on, by way of having her keep her and only her keep her memories, was to give her this close relationship to "you" that spanned eons, and establish that she was largely doing this all out of love for you in hopes that would win her over to players and establish her benevolent intent.

This is a strategy that is generally wildly successful with most NPCs - people loved Haurchefant, G'raha, and even to a degree, Emet-Selch himself because they all adored you and that moved people and made them want to respond to that affection. I would say that by and large it succeeded with Venat, too. However, the simultaneous backlash that accompanied Venat because they genuinely did not think through the other implications of her keeping her memories, yet nothing changing, was something they probably didn't see coming. (Similarly, I really doubt they thought through the full implications when they wrote in Emet alluding to Venat deliberately allowing the Unsundered to escape in order to conjoin the timelines.)

And then when it did, in response they threw together the Omega side-quest as quickly as possible in time for 6.15, lmao. Which hey, I did appreciate for what it was.

[Lunaxia]

She is perfect.

On Athena, I have to admit - and I hasten to add with nothing whatsoever against anyone who does enjoy her and/ or her character model - I couldn't help but laugh when I saw her phase change and how they attempted to engineer in elements of the eldritch abomination concept I'd hoped for but in the most inoffensive and unobtrusive manner to her original design as possible so as not to mar her appearance and turn her into something potentially [gasps] off-putting.

Women can't escape the constraints of societal standards of beauty even when ascending to a higher plane of godhood in a fit of delusional narcissistic grandeur! Alas!

(And I think you're very successful at that, you're too modest!) Oh, and thanks - I inevitably feel like I'm repeating myself or what's already been reiterated all too often for what comes down to the same fundamental points, but if it potentially opens up a worthwhile discussion, then it's served a good purpose.

[Brinne]

On Athena, I have to admit - and I hasten to add with nothing whatsoever against anyone who does enjoy her and/ or her character model - I couldn't help but laugh when I saw her phase change and how they attempted to engineer in elements of the eldritch abomination concept I'd hoped for but in the most inoffensive and unobtrusive manner to her original design as possible so as not to mar her appearance and turn her into something potentially [gasps] off-putting.

Women can't escape the constraints of societal standards of beauty even when ascending to a higher plane of godhood in a fit of delusional narcissistic grandeur! Alas!

(And I think you're very successful at that, you're too modest!)

Okay, I have to admit I actually didn't mind her regular boss model because it felt like another note of "...so are they doing the Parallel on purpose, or...?"

That being said, when her Savage form was revealed, I was totally: "Ah yes, there's my girl!" (Yes, it did still keep her "beautiful" form unchanged, granted. But boy were those some. Additions. Listen, I enjoyed joking about the hilarious implications of her preferences since P8 with poor Hephaistos, so at least her phase change revolving around that felt, ah, consistent.)