On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Cleretic]

Yes, and I could counter this with several instances of players being subjected to disgusting levels of harassment outside of the forums merely for daring to be critical of Endwalker. I could say the levels of mockery and disdain that were shown from the outset towards anyone expressing a palpably negative view of the game were ridiculous and wholly unjustified, and that nothing warranted the nigh on constant attacks on everything from the players' intelligence and characters to their personal lives that continued unabated up until recently. I could counter that there have been trolls on both sides that have done nobody any favours and blatantly worked to fan the flames to the detriment of everyone, not just those who share your point of view, and I could say that even now, despite the best efforts of several posters who have done nothing but express themselves politely and articulately in even in the most obnoxious and trying of circumstances, holding a particular set of views still sets you up to be exposed to a very strange and potent sense of snobbery for choosing to engage critically with the game in a way others do not.

At some point you have to let go of the metaphorical boogeyman and stop using it as an excuse to further victimise yourself and undermine arguments that you disagree with and meaningfully engage with the discussion at hand, or not bother with it all.

SannaR was literally describing the exact same thing as you from an opposing side, and I can say personally that I've been harassed on multiple platforms (part of which you're no doubt aware) for the crime of 'not particularly trusting Emet-Selch or agreeing with Team Zodiark'.

This argument gets virulently ugly because of people deciding their views on this are moral stances that they need to attack people for disagreeing with, and that's not okay. There's a lot of victims to this; don't blame them for voicing that.

[Lunaxia]

Y-you keep calling my takes "charitable"! What can I do to convince you I'm not so soft and naive?

I'm sorry! Perhaps "gracious" might more apt, and closer to what I'm trying to say. It's not a bad thing! It's a very healthy mindset to have. It enables you to offer a fresh understanding on a situation that others may miss or be unable to express, and sometimes even create a possible middle ground to meet on in the centre of what otherwise can feel like a considerably yawning chasm. It's an admirable quality, especially when I find myself struggling to take anything seriously after having to hear how Amaurot is a commentary on fascist states, or how the Convocation supposedly resembles an oligarchy, and I'm incapable of much more than [looks at an invisible camera like I'm on The Office.]

And likewise, there is actually a lot about FFXIV overall and yes, even parts of EW that I could enthuse about endlessly if invited (I did play the game this long for a reason, after all), and it's unfortunate how it gets lost in the mix of the endless controversial debates. Personally, my enthusiasm - as well as my criticism - revolves primarily around the game's approach to storytelling and its ability to establish tension, create atmosphere, induce (the appropriate) emotion in the player and organically develop the characters and the story in a subtle but skilful way (have I mentioned lately how much I loved In From the Cold?) which sometimes it does do so very well and other times, uh... well.) And in less stringent circles less focused on an us vs them narrative regarding the overall view of the story, perhaps I could express them, but there's not really much room here to do that.

SannaR was literally describing...

But it's so inanely repetitive by now it's become by and large redundant, and winds up used as little more than a shield to justify bad faith takes and encourage a hive-mind approach to interpreting the story rather than considering it from a personal and more nuanced perspective. Can we not just report these people and let it go once and for all?

Edit: You know, it's worth mentioning I have seen many instances of posters calling out their own and acknowledging the mistreatment of other users from the critical side, but rarely if ever have I seen even one poster acknowledge the hostility or attacks inflicted in the name of supposedly defending the story - it always has to circle back to making themselves the victim, somehow.

[Cleretic]

Can we not just report these people and let it go once and for all?

Edit: You know, it's worth mentioning I have seen many instances of posters calling out their own and acknowledging the mistreatment of other users from the critical side, but rarely if ever have I seen even one poster acknowledge the hostility or attacks inflicted in the name of supposedly defending the story - it always has to circle back to making themselves the victim, somehow.

Stop. You can't make the case of 'both sides should just let it go and move on', and then immediately attack people you see as being on the other side. Which you have now done multiple times here.

Also: we know moderation is woefully inadequate on this subject, especially when it comes to cross-platform harassment where, frankly, nothing Square-Enix moderation can do can stop someone harassing me for it on Twitter. When that's true, our only option is to self-moderate, and strive to provide a better standard of discussion than the one that's causing the problem. And that requires, sometimes, taking the L and being the better person rather than continuing to swing.

[Lunaxia]

Stop. You can't make the case of 'both sides should just let it go and move on', and then immediately attack people you see as being on the other side. Which you have now done multiple times here.

Also: we know moderation is woefully inadequate on this subject, especially when it comes to cross-platform harassment. When that's true, our only option is to self-moderate, and strive to provide a better standard of discussion than the one that's causing the problem. And that requires, sometimes, taking the L and being the better person.

And you're doing it again. I added that edit because it occurred to me after posting how rather than even attempting to concede the bare minimum that both parties are capable of being at fault, once again it became an issue of deflecting any responsibility away from one side to the other without stopping to think how others outside of your own perspective have been affected. Do you know the extent to which those people have been harassed? The absolutely god awful things that have been said, the threats that have been made? No. You're not interested, and you refused to even entertain the notion, because like the others it ultimately doesn't favour the narrative you're trying to create, and I'm more than bored of the attempts to purport a sense of decorum and courtesy when it becomes more apparent that's the only thing that truly matters here. Do as you like, because I'm done.

[Cleretic]

ADo you know the extent to which those people have been harassed? The absolutely god awful things that have been said, the threats that have been made?

No, but I trusted that you were telling the truth, and I'm sorry that those things happened, and stand by none of the people who did it. I'm not tremendously inclined to ask for evidence or specifics, both because I believe you, and because that doesn't sound fun for either of us to search for or expose.

If that's what you needed as a show of good faith to stop this sort of attitude so we can move on and do better, then you have it.