On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

Again, I will happily defer to an expert, but it seems similar. He just emphasises that by laying waste to those currently living on the star and becoming these new super beings, the world is basically going to be destroyed.

...so, how about that weather, huh?

It's actually really nice where I am right now! Pleasantly cool, but there's sunshine. Seems like an excellent day to not plot to ascend to godhood, use that lofty position to assess the Flaws in our fellow human species, and then use our powers to wipe out all currently living life and reshape them into something "better" for the greater good of the world. Such things are... best left to our mother figures with the striking blue eyes...?

[Lunaxia]

It's actually really nice where I am right now! Pleasantly cool, but there's sunshine. Seems like an excellent day to not plot to ascend to godhood, use that lofty position to assess the Flaws in our fellow human species, and then use our powers to wipe out all currently living life and reshape them into something "better" for the greater good of the world. Such things are... best left to our mother figures with the striking blue eyes...?

You know, the colour is so similar I can't help but feel they did intend a parallel, but along the lines of "look at what happens when you shift in the other direction and selfishly aim for perfection!" - as opposed to slaughtering everyone in the name of artificially staggering progress - and something something love and hope conquers all, contrasting Athena's lack of a mother's love with Venat's supposed abundance of it.

Elpis, Pandaemonium, even the natural selection beyond those walls all function in creating new life that inevitably replaces the old and obsolete.

Which is very, very bad! Because you shouldn't treat life so carelessly, and should instead aim to protect, nuture and guide it instead of getting rid of it the moment it begins to show flaws!

...

[Brinne]

You know, the colour is so similar I can't help but feel they did intend a parallel, but along the lines of "look at what happens when you shift in the other direction and selfishly aim for perfection!" - as opposed to slaughtering everyone in the name of artificially staggering progress

A fun bit I picked up from, er, browsing/collecting Athena fanart (for Reasons), since 6.2, is that they actually switched her model from having red eyes in the Abyssos scenes to the blue we see in Anabaseios! Honestly, some of the stuff with Athena is so on the nose I almost wonder - similar to the way Ishikawa's Omega sidequests (that were really, really obviously thrown in in response to some of the Hydaelyn backlash) basically found a way to say "Venat was wrong" in the Thavnair portion as long as it never directly said it or named her - only implied through general thematic exploration.

But like I said, I'm not holding my breath or anything. If it is unintentional, or seriously meant to set them up as contrasts, of all things, that's just extremely funny, so I can roll with it either way.

[Iscah]

I think that Venat's statement that end "so I take nothing for granted as I walk my path" and the uncertainty that we were in a closed loop timeline or not until the Mothercrystal scene meant that Venat was trying to find solutions to the Final Days that wouldn't involve Zodiark or the Sundering, and by the nature of returning to our timeline we don't see if there are timelines where Venat was less cautious about not taking any steps that would butterfly away Zodiark's creation nor do we get to see the timeline where her pleading to the Zodiark worshiping survivors [convinced them to stop] without having to Sunder.

This is an important point, I think. If we look at the way G'raha's timeline-splitting endeavours worked out and apply that same structure to Venat's potential efforts to avert the future we foretold, it is entirely possible that she did succeed and from that point onward time spun off in a different direction that we will never see or have any sense of its existence, because we are living in the equivalent of the 8UE timeline. It won't be wiped out, it won't be altered, but can only hope that the alteration succeeded.

And yet we don't see any proof of this contigency/defense plan of her, not even in her walk scene.

We wouldn't, because it didn't come to pass in this timeline where her efforts failed and things played out as foretold.

[Denishia]

This is an important point, I think. If we look at the way G'raha's timeline-splitting endeavours worked out and apply that same structure to Venat's potential efforts to avert the future we foretold, it is entirely possible that she did succeed and from that point onward time spun off in a different direction that we will never see or have any sense of its existence, because we are living in the equivalent of the 8UE timeline. It won't be wiped out, it won't be altered, but can only hope that the alteration succeeded.




We wouldn't, because it didn't come to pass in this timeline where her efforts failed and things played out as foretold.

And that the timelines where Venat's attempts at sharing what she knew would end in the disastrous annihilation of Etheirys would vastly outnumber any that saved the planet - Hermes learns of his nihilistic conclusion and doesn't discover the problem in the planetary aether currents that a hypothetical Zodiark would patch up, the general populace learns of the Endsinger and wide-spread panic or defeatism ensues or just a revolt and massive down-spiral of trust in the judgment of the Convocation, no longer trusting their wisdom or leadership so even if the Zodiark plan is proposed not nearly enough of the population believes in it to sacrifice their lives. A non-Zodiark plan is implemented. The wrong people die during the Final Days or too many people die before Zodiark is summoned and the primal isn't strong enough. Or Venat convinces the surviving Amaurotines not to trade the present and future life to return those that had just sacrificed themselves for the sake of creating that life.

These are all thought questions that could be interesting for an outside story - but it adds little to no value to the existing game. And those hypothetical timelines have even more gameplay issues than sending our WoL to the 8UE (If they did as a spin-off sequel, it would be worse than The After Years in plot rehash - about the best way to do the 8UE would be as a Dragonsong Ultimate What-if for ShB to work in the Hades and Elidibus fights). The Unsundered World works better as a sandbox farm/management sim than it does an MMO setting, and we already had our 'Play through the Final Days and find the way to stop it at the source in Endwalker'.

[Iscah]

And that the timelines where Venat's attempts at sharing what she knew would end in the disastrous annihilation of Etheirys would vastly outnumber any that saved the planet...

My own thoughts on timelines are more about minimising the number of splits – "one disruption per time travel event" – so there would only be one break resulting from the changed information we delivered to Venat, not a splayed variety of them. But yeah, if and when she succeeded in breaking it and finding a different way forward, she's in uncharted waters for better or worse, and it could lead to survival or just a different variety of doom as the hypothetical writer desires.

I also don't believe we have any way of accessing the 8UE unless the Ironworks can create a higher order of space-time machine than their counterparts previously built – which at this point seems unlikely, as Cid's reaction to learning he invented a time machine is along the lines of "nice to know I achieved that, now I can spend my time tackling other ideas".

[Denishia]

My own thoughts on timelines are more about minimising the number of splits – "one disruption per time travel event" – so there would only be one break resulting from the changed information we delivered to Venat, not a splayed variety of them. But yeah, if and when she succeeded in breaking it and finding a different way forward, she's in uncharted waters for better or worse, and it could lead to survival or just a different variety of doom as the hypothetical writer desires.

I also don't believe we have any way of accessing the 8UE unless the Ironworks can create a higher order of space-time machine than their counterparts previously built – which at this point seems unlikely, as Cid's reaction to learning he invented a time machine is along the lines of "nice to know I achieved that, now I can spend my time tackling other ideas".

We're not playing FFXIII so constantly hopping between branching timeline options is not feasible and thus their existence outside of fan musing irrelevant, and the 8UE will likely be untouched unless I could see it being used by the Wandering Minstrel as his imaginary location a reason to have the 'Ascian Ultimate'.

[Kozh]

We wouldn't, because it didn't come to pass in this timeline where her efforts failed and things played out as foretold.

I was referring to when she said in elpis, right before sending us back, that she would need to fortify their defense in anticipation of Final Days. Yet all we saw in her alk cutscene is her letting a man eaten by blasphemy.

[Iscah]

I was referring to when she said in elpis, right before sending us back, that she would need to fortify their defense in anticipation of Final Days. Yet all we saw in her alk cutscene is her letting a man eaten by blasphemy.

That was pretty clearly a "thematic swirl of things that happened at some point" kind of scene and not something she really did walk past unfazed.

She clearly can't have walked past Emet and Hyth saying farewell on her way to objecting to a later round of sacrifices, so why assume the other part was any more simultaneous?

[Kozh]

That was pretty clearly a "thematic swirl of things that happened at some point" kind of scene and not something she really did walk past unfazed.

She clearly can't have walked past Emet and Hyth saying farewell on her way to objecting to a later round of sacrifices, so why assume the other part was any more simultaneous?

Oh I realize that. But still, would it kill them to show that she at least try something? Rather than going straight into preaching to some strawman ancients.

And that’s kind my point. We were expected to believe that she did something, but it’s never shown. People said that she did try to tell the convocation before the third sacrifice, yet we don’t have confirmation whether her group trying to argue about the sacrifice or tell about the truth (and considering how venat didn’t tell her followers, I doubt it’s the latter). Venat is the ultimate “tell not show”. So why is she the reliable source while emet who never lies about the past is seen as the unreliable source? The game clearly show when he’s biased and when he’s not. I’m concerned for someone’s media literacy if they couldn’t tell the difference.

*not directed to you personally btw, so put down your pitchfork