Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[MatchaokaCha]

Lol. I wonder if they were making a bit of a disclaimer to cover those errors then. I thought they were solely justifying the healer changes in regards to the increase in healer roles in EW. Now that I have the full context of the convo. It really is giving classical data misinterpretation. I'm not going to comment on their intentions since I don't know them, but comparing a 3rd person rpg to an FPS game is wild. I know Overwatch has some elements of the Trinity system in RPGs, but they're two entirely different worlds and game designs. Shame about the graph too since I love it when people explain stuff like that because I'm too much of a bonehead to have the patience to interpret data most of the time.

[ForsakenRoe]

I know Overwatch has some elements of the Trinity system in RPGs, but they're two entirely different worlds and game designs

If it had been OW as a comparison it'd at least have the 3 roles, but no IIRC it was Halo, COD, Battlefield and one other (maybe Titanfall I don't recall). And their point was that we should have Halo Easy, COD Medium, Battlefield Hard, Titanfall 'ridiculously hard'. And my point was that 'what if someone likes Halo, but wants to play Halo on a harder difficulty' and needless to say, that discussion went nowhere. Just like the Lich King, there must always be a simple, one button DPS rotation healer, to keep all the mindless undead from running rampant or whatever the lore was, idk anymore they broke the helmet so y'know

This is the chart I made, to illustrate what I want the skill floor (green), skill 'staircase' (idk what term to use, middle of the road difficulty, red), and skill ceiling (going for 99th percentile, orange), oh right also it's based on 'how spicy is this curry' because yes, before going for FPS games, the discussion was comparing the healers to curry. And between that and the games, it was hot wings (yes three different analogies and it still didn't seem to help):

The important thing is that while the orange is 'the absolute theoretical maximum' of the class, no piece of content in the game would have demanded it. It'd demand anywhere from green (EX roulettes) to somewhere like halfway between red and orange (ultimates). Even Savage week 1 would presumably be closer to the red than the orange. But they took the orange bars only and went off on one about how everyone would be 'forced' to be more competent to clear Savages they currently can. IDK, I draw graphs and stuff to get my point across so simply and obviously that I'd expect someone who's never played the game before to understand what I'm on about, and they still don't get it, either by sheer obliviousness or intentionally drawing the wrong conclusions, whichever. I suppose if someone who's never played the game 'might get it' and the individual doesn't, it would imply that despite playing the game, they're not actually 'playing the game', in a sense

I don't get it. I just want more for the healers to do in the downtime we invariably end up with, without screwing over all the old content (which fiddling with the healing output/requirements probably would), but the idea of taking healers back to SB style kits, eg adding just one extra damage button to WHM is anathema for some reason. It's not like the content they do would demand they use that extra one button, so they could just... not use it?

[Coatl]

A lot of this is just SE's overreaction to Heavensward. Heavensward raids/class design were hard, brutal, and unforgiving. I would even go as far as to say that it was TOO hard in some circumstances. Just ask a BLM what their new rotation would be if they lost their enochain back then.

But we are so far in the opposite direction right now.

[Shurrikhan]

I know Overwatch has some elements of the Trinity system in RPGs, but they're two entirely different worlds and game designs. Shame about the graph too since I love it when people explain stuff like that because I'm too much of a bonehead to have the patience to interpret data most of the time.

I mean, if the goal were a basis for heavily and enjoyably distinguishing the healers even despite using a minimalistic toolkit, the analogy might have gone somewhere useful. How it could possibly fit into apologizing for the state of healers today, though... I've no idea.

[Miyumi_Nara]

Yoshi p is so tone deaf it's not even funny. Go play ultimate. Screw ultimate it's actually boring as hell. You sit there for an eternity doing a 16-20 minute raid where almost every mechanic is a wipe mechanic if 1 person fails. And on top of that your racing against a clock to kill the boss.
You sit there hours on end watching people screw up mechanics getting aggravated and it breeds stress which makes people toxic as hell. which this ends up breeding a gate keeping community in ultimate where they kick people because there not ultimate ready. But there is no content in between in savage and ultimate.
Which this further creates a disconnect between players even more. It's no wonder only 1% or less of the playerbase even clears ultimate.
My next point is ultimate doesent even reward the players. There really is no point to ultimate weapons outside of being a showoff because they become obsolete once the next tier starts Maybe make them 10-15 I levels higher than savage then people would actually have a real reason to run it.
Personally I find Bozja critical engagements more engaging than ultimate and its more rewarding too

[Absurdity]

A lot of this is just SE's overreaction to Heavensward. Heavensward raids/class design were hard, brutal, and unforgiving. I would even go as far as to say that it was TOO hard in some circumstances. Just ask a BLM what their new rotation would be if they lost their enochain back then.

But we are so far in the opposite direction right now.

We aren't just in the opposite direction anymore. We went into the opposite direction, left the planet and are on our way to Mars.

[ForsakenRoe]

I just don't understand how, after all of SB, the decision was made that 'no actually we need to go further'. Like, I don't remember people complaining about SB requiring the SCHs to press 2 DOTs and an OGCD ground-DOT instead of the 1 we have now, back then. I remember them saying they wanted to have WHM focused on being 'the pure healer', and it being so bad that it was getting hardcore panned. So their solution was to make all the healers be like that, rather than accept that their idea for WHM was bad? It's ridiculous to even entertain the idea, but they not only did, they put it into practice

[Crushnight]

I just don't understand how, after all of SB, the decision was made that 'no actually we need to go further'. Like, I don't remember people complaining about SB requiring the SCHs to press 2 DOTs and an OGCD ground-DOT instead of the 1 we have now, back then. I remember them saying they wanted to have WHM focused on being 'the pure healer', and it being so bad that it was getting hardcore panned. So their solution was to make all the healers be like that, rather than accept that their idea for WHM was bad? It's ridiculous to even entertain the idea, but they not only did, they put it into practice

Arrogance.

Whm was never given a buff an ally ability like Bravery or Faith despite it being in the job’s repertoire in the series for decades, despite both other jobs in its role having access to buffing the party, this could’ve easily helped healer balance issues back in HW and SB, Diurnal Ast would’ve provided higher highs but Whm could’ve been more consistent.

They desperately clung to their “pure healer” vision and it only made balance issues more and more apparent

Then the sweeping ShB changes happened and I can tell people no self respecting Ast wanted the other healers to get their dps rotation.

And concerning Ast for ShB when actually asked about it in a live letter (it was either shortly before Eden gate Savage or shortly after Eden gate savage’s release) the devs effectively said we ain’t making changes because of the people that like it now, they flat out created a big divide in the Ast community and told all the people who liked the old card system “eat shit and deal with what it is now”.

[GaiusDrakon]

Arrogance.

Whm was never given a buff an ally ability like Bravery or Faith despite it being in the job’s repertoire in the series for decades, despite both other jobs in its role having access to buffing the party, this could’ve easily helped healer balance issues back in HW and SB, Diurnal Ast would’ve provided higher highs but Whm could’ve been more consistent.

They desperately clung to their “pure healer” vision and it only made balance issues more and more apparent

Then the sweeping ShB changes happened and I can tell people no self respecting Ast wanted the other healers to get their dps rotation.

And concerning Ast for ShB when actually asked about it in a live letter (it was either shortly before Eden gate Savage or shortly after Eden gate savage’s release) the devs effectively said we ain’t making changes because of the people that like it now, they flat out created a big divide in the Ast community and told all the people who liked the old card system “eat shit and deal with what it is now”.

Lmao best part is Yshtola uses Bravery of the Seventh Dawn

Ryne also uses Banish III lmao

[GrimGale]

I just don't understand how, after all of SB, the decision was made that 'no actually we need to go further'. Like, I don't remember people complaining about SB requiring the SCHs to press 2 DOTs and an OGCD ground-DOT instead of the 1 we have now, back then. I remember them saying they wanted to have WHM focused on being 'the pure healer', and it being so bad that it was getting hardcore panned. So their solution was to make all the healers be like that, rather than accept that their idea for WHM was bad? It's ridiculous to even entertain the idea, but they not only did, they put it into practice

Funny thing is after ShB healer action culling andnthe announcement of EW I wondered what could they possibly add to healers that wasn't new DPS buttons. Back in Shb we had global mitigation, we had instant heals, aoe heals, free aoe heals, oGCD shields, oGCD regens, delayed healbombs and plenty of healing potency to go around. What else could we have needed in terms of support skills?

With such shallow DPS kits Endwalker was the perfect time to start building upon that "streamlining" vision for the DPS kits that the devs seemed to have had the expansion prior.

What did we get? More mitigation. More healing. Scholar but with DPS tools that turn out to be just nothing. More of the same.

To add insult to injury, the devs themselves admited to "be not sure what else they could have added to healers".