Another Pal an War buff patch, another middle finger to Drks

[Shurrikhan]

I guess if DRK is in such a bad spot compared to the other 3 tanks we won't see any DRKs in savage prog next week...

Job in question: Great at A, weirdly (if insignificantly, for now) bad at B.

----: "Well, I guess if they're so bad at [B], we won't see them doing [A], right?

/sigh

[Amenara]

But what are they bad at? Healing themselves in dungeons? You said it yourself in that it insignificant. The game forces you to have a healer when queuing for the dungeon to take care of that pesky healing anyway. Honestly, the complaining about buffing PLD and WAR is premature as we have no idea what the numbers are going to look like with savage mechanics. If DRK is behind and not being brought then I am all about buffing them to bring them in line. If it continues to be the norm that every single prog group brings a DRK tank because of their mitigation and DPS kit, then I don't see the issue.

Edit to be more clear: You want to add more sustain to arguably the best designed tank for the current 2 minute buff windows who has arguably the best tank CDs in raids because you are mad that the healer has to cast a few more heals on them in a dungeon when compared to the other tanks? The problem is that the game isn't balanced around dungeons because it is content that is designed for every single person to clear difficulty wise no matter what your skill level is with the job. The game is balanced around raids where actual job disparity matters and you have instances where there are DPS checks that may not be met depending on your groups composition and the current balance of the jobs, ie what happened last tier.

[RyuDragnier]

Edit to be more clear: You want to add more sustain to arguably the best designed tank for the current 2 minute buff windows who has arguably the best tank CDs in raids because you are mad that the healer has to cast a few more heals on them in a dungeon when compared to the other tanks? The problem is that the game isn't balanced around dungeons because it is content that is designed for every single person to clear difficulty wise no matter what your skill level is with the job. The game is balanced around raids where actual job disparity matters and you have instances where there are DPS checks that may not be met depending on your groups composition and the current balance of the jobs, ie what happened last tier.

So tell me...how would it make DRK OP to get sustain? People mention that sustain does nothing for WAR in raids, so how would it make DRK OP? How would adding a regen on Oblation make DRK OP? How would buffing AD's cure potency make DRK OP?

[Eorzean_username]

People need to pick a lane.

Either Tanks having strong solo sustain is irrelevant to balance, or it isn't.

If solo sustain is not important when considering Savage balance, then DRK getting sustain equal to the other Tanks in the ever-vaunted "lesser content" is not a problem.

If solo sustain is important when considering Savage balance, then other Tanks shouldn't be buffed to equivalence with DRK in other areas.

If you're OK with WAR's damage output getting buffed without nerfing its solo sustain, then you have no ground to stand on when DRK — which already has the damage — simply requests equivalent solo sustain.

Otherwise, you're basically suggesting that it's okay for WAR to just be an objectively-superior mechanical choice, which is inane.

[Oizen]

I also think anyone who says WAR's sustain is worthless in savage content hasn't actually read nascent flash.

[Absurdity]

I also think anyone who says WAR's sustain is worthless in savage content hasn't actually read nascent flash.

WAR's sustain isn't worthless, it's just not any better than the superior flat mitigation that other tanks have.

Nascent is a bit of a special case, even if it ends up being worthless because it just resulted in overhealing you still barely lose any of your own sustain, whereas using TBN on someone else means you end up with 0 mitigation from it for yourself.

Although technically Paladin is in a similar boat, you can use Intervention on someone else without necessarily losing Holy Shelltron for yourself.

[Lyth]

I think with the recent discussion around WAR and PLD facilitating a no healer clear of the latest Ultimate in the same patch that it was released, the devs really should be evaluating whether both those jobs actually need to have access to so much additional sustain and mitigation for no effort. Lifesteal can be interesting when it requires players to actually understand damage patterns (see: Death Strike), but on demand healing whenever you feel like it doesn't reinforce skilled play.

[Shurrikhan]

But what are they bad at? Healing themselves in dungeons? You said it yourself in that it insignificant.

Edit to be more clear: You want to add more sustain to arguably the best designed tank for the current 2 minute buff windows who has arguably the best tank CDs in raids because you are mad that the healer has to cast a few more heals on them in a dungeon when compared to the other tanks?

Abyssal Drain. I'd like an Abyssal Drain buff, and --at most-- *maybe* a bit of healing attached to Carve and Spit.

That's what you're getting yourself so worried over.

Yes, I said myself that it's insignificant. I have to wonder why an AD cure potency buff then --despite being insignificant by even your admission, especially in the content DRK is already fine at-- is somehow going to worsen tank balance significantly further (especially when DRK was the only tank not to receive buffs to what matters in 8-man content).

[Oizen]

WAR's sustain isn't worthless, it's just not any better than the superior flat mitigation that other tanks have.

Nascent is a bit of a special case, even if it ends up being worthless because it just resulted in overhealing you still barely lose any of your own sustain, whereas using TBN on someone else means you end up with 0 mitigation from it for yourself.

Although technically Paladin is in a similar boat, you can use Intervention on someone else without necessarily losing Holy Shelltron for yourself.

Not really? Its not what I'm talking about.
Its less of the fact of using it for tanking damage (which you very much still can do), and more of the fact it allows WAR to heal a DPS/Healer who aren't taking constant damage basically to full, at no real cost to itself, on a 25s cooldown, and you're still healing yourself to boot.

Using the other Tank's cover skills has way less payoff. You honestly can be mashing Nascent on CD between Tank busters, especially if you're the OT as then the entire mitigation part is more or less completely out the window at that point.

[ed3891]

So tell me...how would it make DRK OP to get sustain? People mention that sustain does nothing for WAR in raids, so how would it make DRK OP? How would adding a regen on Oblation make DRK OP? How would buffing AD's cure potency make DRK OP?

You've got access to 20% magic damage reduction in Dark Mind, two charges of 10% damage reduction in Oblation, plus Rampart & Shadow Wall, and TBN with a 15s cooldown on top of that.

In terms of flat% damage reduction, WAR's got Rampart & Vengeance, and 8s of 10% reduction from BW. Thrill doesn't reduce incoming damage and only confers a 10s HP buffer every 90s, and Equi just adds a 5-tick HoT that totals to 1000p usable once a minute.

It occurs that if you want self-sustain tacked onto DRK, you need to be prepared both to give up several of your available existing %mitigations, and to endure an endless bitch-fest about further tank homogenization and the perceived uselessness of healers.