Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[CelestiCer]

If you think you are some big brain skill level cause you hit Chaos Thrust from the rear compared to hitting True North > Chaos Thrust from anywhere you need to play more games.

- Says the person having played this for 10 years...
Standing still for equal DPS performance = Boring. Encourage Laziness. Positional removal deletes optional optimization. Easy to execute surface level, harder when doing it all the time everywhere. Encouraging DPS plus for movement is a plus. Standing still a lot is for casters, it's available if u wanna play it.

You know they've added other mechanics to DRG over the last 10 years that have nothing to do with positionals right? / Things that have actually added layers to the gameplay of DRG.

- What Square has done is homogenize our Jobs
Streamlining Job gameplay down to a handful of braincell requirements to play. Unless the 2 min meta is what you think is the pinnacle of Job gameplay. Encouraging Square to homogenize our Jobs more for nothing in return is just moronic, as is your assumption of players hitting their positionals and accusing them of feeling superior over you. Does this indicate that you can't hit even over half yours in normal raids post-DRG changes? Well... not my DPS loss.

- Once positionals are removed, and jobs are not improved?
It would not surprise me... if you lot who support any ounce of simplifying anything Job-wise? will double down... to request Square to remove even more under this false pretense to improve the jobs. Now there's more room for more layers and depth... riiiiight. It would not suprise me one bit =u=; but I guess we'll wait and see right. I'd like to be proven wrong that they are not making our jobs dumber.

[zeth07]

- Says the person having played this for 10 years...

Surely you aren't trying to take a dig at me for playing THIS game for 10 years, as if I somehow haven't personally played through countless other games to prove my point...

Anyone who has played a fighting game or action game would surely agree that positionals are the lowest of low in terms of any kind of "skill" requirement. And again to be clear I am not talking about the situations where mechanically it matters, because we are given skills to remove that factor at the cost of having to press an extra oGCD, wow. Which is why I do not understand the people who think it's some complex gameplay that adds to the job identity, it's nothing and is removed where it even has the slightest difficulty.

Standing still for equal DPS performance = Boring. Encourage Laziness. Positional removal deletes optional optimization. Easy to execute surface level, harder when doing it all the time everywhere. Encouraging DPS plus for movement is a plus. Standing still a lot is for casters, it's available if u wanna play it.

Again, the game could just NOT be boring because of the mechanics of the fights... Or they could add more layers to the job itself that isn't positionals, as in something more unique. Just like the job has evolved beyond positional requirements over the last 10 years to make it more interesting. In ARR yes positionals added something because there was NOTHING. That isn't the case now and hopefully isn't in the future. They already said it was getting a rework and just the fact that every expansion adds something new means it should happen again.

[B]- What Square has done is homogenize our Jobs
Streamlining Job gameplay down to a handful of braincell requirements to play. Unless the 2 min meta is what you think is the pinnacle of Job gameplay. Encouraging Square to homogenize our Jobs more for nothing in return is just moronic, as is your assumption of players hitting their positionals and accusing them of feeling superior over you. Does this indicate that you can't hit even over half yours in normal raids post-DRG changes? Well... not my DPS loss.

I didn't say anything about homogenizing. Positionals are NOT unique to Dragoon to begin with. DRG has it's own job mechanics and could get other stuff in return.

For example:
- They gave us Blood of the Dragon, which changed our combos/buffs, and had Geirskogul.
- They added Mirage Dive, Dragon Sight, and Nastrond which brought some buff and an extra layer of gameplay with getting eyes for Nastrond as part of the "Life Cycle"
- Shadowbringers were more or less core changes besides the new stuff.
- Then we got Wyrmwind Thrust which was another layer of building mechanics.

So they could just as easily add something unique again, which they likely would...

[B]- Once positionals are removed, and jobs are not improved?
It would not surprise me... if you lot who support any ounce of simplifying anything Job-wise? will double down... to request Square to remove even more under this false pretense to improve the jobs. Now there's more room for more layers and depth... riiiiight. It would not suprise me one bit =u=; but I guess we'll wait and see right. I'd like to be proven wrong that they are not making our jobs dumber.

When has this ever happened though? They always add something new because they would be stupid not to. Positonals are OLD and not unique to the job.

Are you someone who thinks all the changes to Blood of the Dragon makes the job inherently worse/less fun to play? Before you had to maintain the timer which ended up becoming pretty strict. Then they increased the timer (QoL) which made it a lot easier to maintain. Then they outright removed the timer (QoL) and now you don't have to worry about it, it's just built into the job. I imagine a lot of people saw these as welcome changes since they were just quality of life upgrades.

How bout when they changed Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw to not be random? Were you upset about that? Did that really remove the "skill" required to play the job?

I think a lot of people would agree that Dragoon as it is now was already in a good place in terms of playability and it didn't make sense when they were talking about a "rework", more so one that now involves an entire expansion of changes. Which means all the changes that HAVE happened put it where it is now...


The other thing I'll touch on is the Samurai Kaiten change which I think was/is overblown (of course). There is another perfect example of the same situation, which was Dark Knight using Dark Arts. That was beyond annoying, and if you somehow think fixing it removed some complexity or playability of the job you must like spamming the same skill for some reason. Kaiten was/is the exact same thing. Makes no sense to me.

////

Monk is another one, there was a 40 page post about MNK positionals in 6.0. If your "job identity" is based around positionals in people's head then it's not well designed or unique at all since other jobs had/have them. Add to the fact that even beyond what DRG got with Dragon Sight, they had Riddle of Earth with 3 charges to remove positionals anyway before all the other changes. Which again, are the devs themselves removing the positional requirement WITHIN the job that people seem to somehow tag as its identity, and that was more than DRG.

[Shurrikhan]

Again, the game could just NOT be boring because of the mechanics of the fights...

Sure. They're wholly able to do that. Even now. With positionals. The two are wholly separate. Never has the inclusion of positionals constrained boss design.

I didn't say anything about homogenizing. Positionals are NOT unique to Dragoon to begin with.

Tell me, which is more homogenizing? A sub-role having certain things in common between its member jobs, or there being no distinguishing features between sub-roles to begin with?

Let's say we remove cast times from casters because they're "just DPS anyways"? Surely that wouldn't be homogenizing, either? For each among RDM, SMN, BLM, and BLU... another job has cast times anyways, after all.
/s

The other thing I'll touch on is the Samurai Kaiten change which I think was/is overblown (of course). There is another perfect example of the same situation, which was Dark Knight using Dark Arts.

But they weren't the same situation.

With the Endwalker changes and removal of Kaiten, Kenki degraded from a gauge that required a degree of actual preemptive margining and had multiple spenders (even excluding situationals), to effectively charges of just the single non-situational spender (Shinten, in place of DA).

They were distinct, in large part because of Kaiten, right up until Kaiten was removed.

Was Kaiten the only thing making that difference? Of course not. Removing the 50-gauge cost from Senei/Guren was also a large part of that, as was doubling the cooldown of Ikishouten. But Kaiten was the final straw there, as the only other margining left is both situational and too modest to actually require any forethought.

[VentVanitas]

Monk is another one, there was a 40 page post about MNK positionals in 6.0. If your "job identity" is based around positionals in people's head then it's not well designed or unique at all since other jobs had/have them. Add to the fact that even beyond what DRG got with Dragon Sight, they had Riddle of Earth with 3 charges to remove positionals anyway before all the other changes. Which again, are the devs themselves removing the positional requirement WITHIN the job that people seem to somehow tag as its identity, and that was more than DRG.

just so you know, people who didn't play monk because of positionals still don't play it now. removing 4/6 of them did absolutely nothing to "improve" the job.

[Shurrikhan]

just so you know, people who didn't play monk because of positionals still don't play it now. removing 4/6 of them did absolutely nothing to "improve" the job.

Aye. Nor were the former greater number of positionals incompatible with the new Blitz system. We could easily have had both.

The only real competitor with Blitz was the pressure of alternative uses of Perfect Balance, such as for the likes of Stormblood TK rotations. Reducing it from 5 to 3 hits was fine for either system (technically even better for GL than the less frequent 5-hit ability was). And even then, a "use special move based on your last 3 skills" could easily have worked alongside GL.

[Mikey_R]

Anyone who has played a fighting game or action game would surely agree that positionals are the lowest of low in terms of any kind of "skill" requirement.

What are you smoking? Your position in relation to your opponent/s is a very high level skill to have, especially in fighting games. Knowing your position relative to your opponent is crucial in knowing what you can do, what they can do and as a result, try and predict what they will do to give yourself the advantage. Whilst it is not as crucial in action games, in fighting games, it is absolutely a high level skill that takes a long time to master.

There is one crucial thing that plays into fighting games in regards to your position, and that is anticipation, where/what do you think your opponent is going to go and putting yourself in a spot to best utilise that. The same goes for FFXIV. You need to anticipate where you need to stand before the boss moves. If you need to go clockwise to hit the rear, but you know the boss is about to turn to do a mechanic, go anti-clockwise instead. Encounters are fixed, you know what is coming, so there is no reason you cannot anticipate where the boss is going to be and adjust accordingly, especially in fixed groups where you know where everyone is going to be. it is this skill that I believe most are not playing into when playing melee. They think where they need to go at the time rather than anticipating where they need to go in the future. This is why people like positionals and why it is rewarding to hit them.

Just an example. I know shadowbringers monk was absolutely ridiculous with positionals but it sort of made sense to me that the "punchy" class relied on hitting the opponent with the proper positioning did good damage. I'd actually like it if monk had a little more positionals than we do right now just not as insane as it used to be.

It was originally only going to lose 2 positionals if you look at the media tour info, IIRC it was Raptor form (Twins Snakes/True Strike) but they changed it since then (along with alot of other things across multiple jobs).

[Sqwall]

The whole reason I and many (manily me) were so vocal about MNK having to many positionals...was because it was a shallow attempt at gameplay. It DID make sense in ARR and Heavensward...but it quickly outgrew it's "identity" in Stormblood and Shadowbringers with Endwalker being the nail in the coffin to make room for Blitz (which is WAY better then 4 positionals). Raid content was main cause, Positionals contributed to the problem. Positionals were just the tip of the iceberg for MNK. It seemed nothing endgame was even designed thinking of MNK at all (looking at you shadowbringers anatman, tornado kick, Six Sided Star -- I don't think ANYONE used these skills in shadowbringers).

With the inclusion of True North and eventually 3 charges of Riddle of Earth (which mind you is the most bastardized skill in the game going through I think 5 revisions, to then ultimately be deleted...tells me a lot about how MNK no longer fit the mold come Endwalker)

Truth is... MNK was a round peg....trying to fit in a square hole since Stormblood. And by Shadowbringers the damage was done. By then the players associated that job with "positional" gameplay...and it came with a lot of baggage. Most "elitist" players just log shamed and laughed at me for not being goku level MNK and missing a postionals. Truth is I didn't care...I loved MNK and being the speedy punchy class because... IT WAS FUN! Positionals be damed! I truly felt bad for those that loved it for that one reason, part of me felt bad that they lost something so I could gain some semblance of a more streamlined job.

I constantly go back to the analogy "The ship of Theseus". MNK was designed with positionals in mind back in ARR, of which worked back then. The years seemed to just add things to the job that no longer supported what it was designed to be...the positional job, and it just became this mess of design choices that NOTHING complimented the other. As other jobs were introduced, and better design choices made for those jobs respectively, and non of which given to mnk...it's fate was sealed. MNK was shadow of it's former self, and just a train wreck to play. It had lost it's focus.

MNKs fate was a result of the raid content department NOT communicating with the job design department for nearly 9 years. I would bet dollars to donuts that the dev team will NEVER go back to that type of job design as long as this quest for perfect endgame balance continues.

Blitz system is new and interesting system doesn't require to much thought. Just do your normal rotation and you are granted a large damage bonus, and it's always fun to build up blitz to then unleash that phantom rush. Super satisfying! Way better then using all your Greased Lightning for a Tornado Kick, to then stunt your DPS for 9 GCD's in Shadowbringers. I can't wait to see the additions to Blitz come 7.0.

Will DRG go the same route? Will it become more streamlined for the sake of new and interesting designs? Who knows, but I can't wait to see the changes to DRG...this Dragon Sight is a step in the right direction. And with jobs having less and less positionals more and more....I would NOT be surprised if they finally just got the axe.

[Mikey_R]

The whole reason I and many (manily me) were so vocal about MNK having to many positionals...was because it was a shallow attempt at gameplay. ...

With the inclusion of True North and eventually 3 charges of Riddle of Earth...

Truth is... MNK was a round peg....trying to fit in a square hole since Stormblood. And by Shadowbringers the damage was done. ...

I constantly go back to the analogy "The ship of Theseus". ...

MNKs fate was a result of the raid content department ...

Blitz system is new and interesting system doesn't require to much thought....

Will DRG go the same route? ....

Here is the thing though, there is no reason positionals and Blitzes couldn't co-exist, infact, I would even be fine with the Blitzes being positionless. As for Anatman and SSS and ShB fight designs in general, they didn't inhibit the ability to do positionals, how they hampered Monk was in the upkeep of Greased Lightning, which, in my opinion, WAS an archaic mechanic that was not keeping up with the times. All Monk used to get was different ways to keep GL through longer and longer downtime intervals and so, rather than getting something new, we got more GL maintenance. Come EW when GL is no longer an issue, that is when Blitzes were added. They were no longer shackled to GL and could have more freedom.

As for RoE, the change it give it TN properties was a mistake.

What about losing positionals made Monk more streamlined? I found Monk to be very streamlined with positionals, so I am curious as you why you think it had this effect.

The Ship of Theseus analogy doesn't apply here as that is about replacing a component with the same, newer component and asking the question, if you replace one, 2 maybe a whole section of the boat, you would still call it the same boat, however, if, over time, you replaced everything, is it still the same boat? It looks exactly the same as the original, but there is nothing original about it, so can we call it the same ship? If not, at what point did it stop being the original ship? None of this applies to the state of Monk.

Again, there is no evidence that raid design is being hampered by positionals.

Yes, Blitzes are better than GL by a long shot, doesn't mean positionals had to go though.

As for DRG, I have no idea what they plan and to be honest, I'm not too bothered. It isn't a job I play a lot so i will leave it to the people who DO actually play it to have thoughts on how the want to change it.

However, the question I keep asking over and over has yet to be answered. Why could we NOT have the melees cover the whole spectrum in regards to number of positionals? Have a melee that has none, have some in the middle, have one with loads. Everyone should be satisfied then as there will be a job for everyone.

[Taranok]

Again, there is no evidence that raid design is being hampered by positionals.

The evidence is the fight design itself and what the devs can and have accomplished. Specifically, P9S is a very boring, very static fight. P10S is a very dynamic and arguably interesting fight. Having to work around positionals in P9S is tedious and doesn't really have any impact on my DPS outside of the boss randomly rotating because of bad tank movement, but the in/out mechanic with a front/back and several positions to dodge from cracks actually is interesting, especially since you can greed with max melee, but you have to be very careful about it. Everything else? Oh look, I just true north almost every mechanic because it's up. For everything. Woo, such riveting design.

Like, we can argue over split hairs. I'd say P10S is the perfect example of the garbage fight design for casters, but as a melee I've enjoyed it a hell of a lot more while progging than P9S. P1S and P2S, kind of the same thing. 1 was boring (admittedly I was a red mage,) 2 was a lot more interesting.

Nothing about P4S, both phase 1 and 2, individually or collectively, was truly that interesting compared to P2S. Same thing with P8SP1 versus P2. Actually, P8SP1 is arguably one of the worst designed fights since it simultaneously did nothing new or interesting, positionals added nothing to the fight, and it still screwed over casters. We can throw in P7S, but that had a handful of interesting mechanics and, for some reason, the devs put them back to back right at the end of the fight.

Simply put, of all the fights in Endwalker I have done, despite them all being garbage for casters almost entirely, the fights without positionals have all done vastly more interesting things than the fights with positional mechanics. Even if you just look at how often you need to move to handle a mechanic, the required times you have to run around the arena to do something is vastly, vastly greater on fights without positionals.

When the devs have to design fights around melee existing, they assume there can be up to 2 melee DPS, and the devs go out of their way to expect DPS to have a static spot on the corner of the boss, and then design the boss to stay near the middle of the arena, constantly facing north, constantly giving melee these positionals. When freed of this requirement, the devs are allowed to, you know, do interesting things with the boss, like jump around the arena, shape the arena, and in general restrict movement. Which the devs have been doing a lot of in Endwalker.

To me, the boss jumping around is a hell of a lot more interesting than players running across the arena, and they can enable this style of gameplay if the devs remove positionals from the game. Hell, I like coming back to it because it's probably one of the actually best designed fights in the entire game. Neo-Exdeath. Between jumping around the arena, line cleaves between in and out, forced melee downtime, things for ranged DPS to need to do with movement. Even casters being forced to stack and move. It all made for a very well balanced fight for all roles. And, you know, it had no positional requirements.

[Shurrikhan]

The evidence is the fight design itself and what the devs can and have accomplished. Specifically, P9S is a very boring, very static fight. P10S is a very dynamic and arguably interesting fight.

But, again, in what way does that have to do with positionals? Looking at the results of myriad factors and then saying that all but one point in difference must be irrelevant isn't terribly convincing, especially given that we've had even more intricate fights than P10S that nonetheless had positional and show no signs of having been constrained by them.

We've had positional bosses, for instance "jump around the arena, shape the arena, and in general restrict movement". What we see far less often is non-positional bosses being anywhere but on one side of a massive rectangle, being punchable practically from outer space.