Thread: On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

Originally Posted by Cleretic

3000 words ugh

Regarding Themis...

Elidibus was as much a villain as an important factor to our victory. And his entire story arc in Shadowbringers is that he is but a hollow shell who doesn't even recall what and who he is fighting for. Of course those things are going to factor into how he is handled in terms of villain-y, especially compared to Lahabrea, who has been nothing but a burden and a roadblock at every turn, whose villainous actions need to be further inspected as he didn't get much focus unlike the other two unsundered.

Themis also puts it pretty clearly in his departure speech: he has no regrets, and all the events that led up to ensuring Etherisys' salvation were meaningful, both the villain-y and the heroism. At least that's how I came to understand his words, and I think it was a good enough acknowledgment of the hazy past/future he remembered, as the incomplete incantation that he was. His response also falls in line with his unsundered brethren as well, and he seemed to have the most positive outlook in terms of the current state of the world.

I do understand where you're coming from, but I don't personally think Themis needed to give more than what he gave to us, I don't think it would've added a lot more to his character or the story.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

We don't exactly know what causes one to happen but not the other, save that evidently we were at risk of causing the second while going to Elpis; natural assumption is that actually setting the time loop into motion/doing something that definitely COULDN'T be a time loop does it, but we don't have any proof of that. For all we know, the determiner is whether or not we eat cheese on the trip.

So in other words, your understanding of ffxiv time travel is on par with people you claimed to "not understand ffxiv time travel"

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up on Doctor Who, which tuck carefully to the time travel rule of 'it works how this specific story needs it to work', so I've got a solid training in not demanding too much of time travel rules.

Well this isn't Doctor Who. And frankly, that's just bad writing (when applied to FFXIV) to me.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Even in Anabeisos, when we don't have the argument of 'he hasn't done those things yet', because it is confirmably exactly Elidibus, who already did those things. We basically just skip over the many times when he tried to destroy our world (and sometimes us specifically), with the casual wave-away of 'oh he wasn't all there', and... no, that doesn't fly with me, especially because he's the reason he was in that state in the first place. If the game wants me to look at a villain as a sympathetic person, it needs to not ignore the villainous things they did, and while they did well with that with Lahabrea, 'ignore the villainous things' was exactly what they did with Elidibus.[/HB]

The revelation of him having memories of his Ascian time happened very near the end. It's literally the last cutscene. What do you want? Ruin the cutscene and pacing by questioning and getting angry at him? Even not directly aimed at the sundered, he helped us save the world. Be thankful.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

All of this is also true of Elidibus... but despite this, the game never turns that same critical eye to Themis. Even in Anabeisos, when we don't have the argument of 'he hasn't done those things yet', because it is confirmably exactly Elidibus, who already did those things. We basically just skip over the many times when he tried to destroy our world (and sometimes us specifically), with the casual wave-away of 'oh he wasn't all there', and... no, that doesn't fly with me, especially because he's the reason he was in that state in the first place. If the game wants me to look at a villain as a sympathetic person, it needs to not ignore the villainous things they did, and while they did well with that with Lahabrea, 'ignore the villainous things' was exactly what they did with Elidibus.

I'm pretty sure they never look at Themis that way due to the various circumstances behind it. Originally he became the heart of Zodiark to save the world. Then he basically was recreated out of Zodiark to act as a mediator and set the world on its rightful path, as he always did as Emissary. He wasn't even openly villainous to us until the end of Stormblood, as before he took over Zenos it felt like he was just a passive force moving pieces on the chessboard. When we see him again in Shadowbringers, we find out about what he is, and Y'shtola even points out that his will may likely not even be his own, but instead the will of the souls that were sacrificed to create Zodiark. All of this gives him a bit more leeway, because it's very possible that he wasn't even in full control of himself.

Basically Lahabrea proved that it was all him when he fused both his halves together. Everything we have seen of Themis paints him in a kinder light, and makes him feel less like a villain.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Oh, I fully understand why the writers take the direction they do with Themis.

Come on now, you cannot in good stead claim on the one hand to reject certain Ancients because the story treats them and/ or their actions too generously, and then go on to cite Venat as a good example of a character receiving adequate in-universe criticism because of some purported vague moments of self-reflection on the other. Even in good faith, that's just flat out denial, lol.

Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I've come to see the writing of Pandaemonium as very, ah, disjointed? I suppose the terminology I would use would be that. I don't see much evidence that they'd given too much thought as to how the parallels between Athena and Venat truly made the Mothercrystal look. But it is what it is, I suppose.

The previous patches were fine, but the final tier caught the Endwalker disease and tried too hard to make a Very Deep and Meaningful Message in lieu of constructing a coherent story with substance behind it that holds up to analysis. Fanservice 1, narrative 0.

Originally Posted by Eisi

And the reason why they wanted it is cheap - they wanted you to know the real Hydaelyn,.

For good reason. After Shadowbringers, people were already thinking that she's an evil goddess who just wanted to sunder the world for no reason. Going back in time allowed us to see her reasoning and that it was not a decision taken lightly.

Originally Posted by Yuella

For good reason. After Shadowbringers, people were already thinking that she's an evil goddess who just wanted to sunder the world for no reason. Going back in time allowed us to see her reasoning and that it was not a decision taken lightly.

Well we meet Hydaelyn from the past, she could have well become a villain in our times. And she could have been reasonable in an alternate timeline as well that nontheless showed that person in similar circumstance.

So I disagree, it was about us having known our Hydaelyn from the intro and throughout the story, that was the reason. Because they thought it would be cool. I also doubt they write in order to counter fan narratives to be honest.

I loved how they handled Lahabrea in this arc too, that we were allowed the in-character option to dislike, distrust, and be curt to him, something not afforded to Elidibus or Emet. Not being railroaded into it earned more of my good graces. Still only really liked Erichtonios out of that bunch of NPCs but wouldn't trade Claudien remaining his own character post-raid for a Noah/Koh situation to keep Erich. I also liked that Lahabrea was at his most likeable as a memory-ghost and then to return to Lahabrea in the past where he's back to being the heavy-handed jerk inadvertently setting himself on the path to becoming the cackling destroyer of several planets so it doesn't feel odd that the next time chronologically for him that we meet is while he's pulling an Elidibus by possessing the body of one of our friends. I'm glad that the note we ended on was closer to that of enemies with mutual respect rather than the ephemeral alliance.

Themis and Elidibus, for me..eh, I'm glad he was a friend for Erichtonios who needed one. From his introduction back in 2.1 he was a smug liar adding some spice to the shadow council of hooded cliches, returned for patches, earned a bit of pity in 6.3 and that's it. As my favorite of the sad old cynical fallen heroes of ShB was Ardbert, distantly followed by Ran'jit, Elidibus's desecration upset me emotionally more than Zenos and Fandaniel in the "In from the Cold Mission". Also when he was the most memorable, never the more entertaining opponent but not the most unlikeable, even among Ascians. P11 felt like a lampshade hanging on how we never fought Themis/Elidibus when he wasn't puppeting stolen power, be it Ardbert, Zenos, or Azem via the countless dreams of those he was aiming to wipe out. Maybe it's because I was doing the new Ocean Route before and after that final cutscene, but Elidibus's fondness for the word 'sea' makes me hope that ending was just implying a sliver of whatever survives of Themis being reborn on the First as an Ondo with nothing special about him but the Echo and a relaxing life of Lancetfish Jail.

They did...by summoning Zodiark