Yoshi P comments on death penalty and more

[Kaedan]

There's absolutely no challenge in "thinking a little harder" before entering battle. The presence of a death penalty doesn't add absolutely anything to the difficulty (and therefore the challenge) of an encounter. It just changes the consequences, with absolutely no bearing on the mechanics of the encounter itself.
To make an encounter challenging, you simply make the mob hit harder, resist more, have attacks that are difficult and require teamplay to counter.
That's what challenge is. XP-based death penalty is nothing else than an so-called-hardcore's delusion of challenge.

*sigh*

Yes, it does make you think more. How it works right now, is people just rush into an encounter and start attacking. If they die, they just get up and do it again until they either beat it through pure Zerg, or learn what they have to do differently.

If there was a death penalty, then people would think twice about just rushing in and would actually plan for the encounter. You can have your "challenging" content, and also have a death penalty.

Oh really? because I actually read the japanese thread and the vast majority disagrees. exactly like here.
Oops.

The game has enough timesinks. It doesn't need more.

Oh, so you speak Japanese? I would love for you to post your translation of this "thread where the vast majority" disagrees. Oh, and I do speak Japanese, so I'll be checking for accuracy.

EDIT: Alternatively, you can just post the link and I can read through it myself.

[Elkwood]

Well the game needs some form of penalty for death, as my LS resident expert on said death I am all for it. Wether it be XP/SP loss, Excessive Gear Damage, 5 minute Downtime whatever. I am happy with the grind as it is now, Endgame isn't for everyone, and the sooner people realize that the better this game can become faster.

[Nephera]

1. Status down (weak) on resurrection from death. Will recover after some time or pay gil to NPC.

oh ho wait I see what he's doing there.

when he says some time he means a long time, almost like where you would take a hit to constitution from dying in daoc.

[Abriael]

Yes, it does make you think more. How it works right now, is people just rush into an encounter and start attacking. If they die, they just get up and do it again until they either beat it through pure Zerg, or learn what they have to do differently.

LOL. And pray tell, how is this better than going to look on a guide online and following the instructions?
It doesn't make people think more. It simply makes them take less chances on their own.

If there was a death penalty, then people would think twice about just rushing in and would actually plan for the encounter. You can have your "challenging" content, and also have a death penalty.

No, people would just go online and read the instructions for it. "challenging" content completely denies the need for a death penalty, which is *nothing* else than a timesink.
Timesinks have nothing to do with challenge or skill. They are simply related to time, as the name itself suggests.
They are a way to make people waste their time. If you want to waste your gaming time, you can turn off the computer every time you die, instead of trying to force everyone to waste theirs because it "sounds" more hardcore.

Oh, so you speak Japanese? I would love for you to post your translation of this "thread where the vast majority" disagrees. Oh, and I do speak Japanese, so I'll be checking for accuracy.

EDIT: Alternatively, you can just post the link and I can read through it myself.

You read Japanese and you can't find it for yourself? It's the same thread in which Yoshida posted. Easy to find. Give it a look. Almost no one vouches for an sp based death penalty. And no, I'm not going to translate a whole thread for someone that claims he can read it

Endgame isn't for everyone

Oh really? and pray tell, where do I sign for that special subscription that entitles me to have said endgame while others should be barred from it for whatever reason?

[Elkwood]

Did I say people should be barred, some like it and some don't, hence the broad and general statement

[Abriael]

Did I say people should be barred, some like it and some don't, hence the broad and general statement

And what does that have to do with death penalty?

[Elkwood]

Reread my entire statement and you should be able to ascertain that for yourself, it is pretty straight forward.

[Kaedan]

LOL. And pray tell, how is this better than going to look on a guide online and following the instructions?
It doesn't make people think more. It simply makes them take less chances on their own.

If they are going online to look it up, then they are putting thought into it and planning... sorry, even the best "instructions" won't play the game for you.

No, people would just go online and read the instructions for it. "challenging" content completely denies the need for a death penalty, which is *nothing* else than a timesink.
Timesinks have nothing to do with challenge or skill. They are simply related to time, as the name itself suggests.
They are a way to make people waste their time. If you want to waste your gaming time, you can turn off the computer every time you die, instead of trying to force everyone to waste theirs because it "sounds" more hardcore.

Umm... "challenging" content can be looked up online too... what's your point? You can have challenging content and a death penalty. For many gamers, its more fun... risk increases the feeling of satisfaction.

lol I can't believe I'm hearing this. "Timesinks just waste time so we shouldn't have them because it makes the game not fun". Alright, so by your logic, we should be able to hit level cap in one kill and get max gil from the first leve we accomplish. Oh, and we should have unlimited Anima so we can teleport anywhere anytime we want, cause afterall, running is a timesink. Oh, and we should get rid of animations too, since they just waste time. Crafting and gathering minigames? Yeah, they're out too.

You read Japanese and you can't find it for yourself? It's the same thread in which Yoshida posted. Easy to find. Give it a look. Almost no one vouches for an sp based death penalty. And no, I'm not going to translate a whole thread for someone that claims he can read it

What section is it in? It's not in general discussion, Information, or Updates. And I never asked you to translate the whole thing... a few excerpts would have been fine.

Provide a link or tell me which section it's in, if it exists, and I will read it.

[Arcell]

Since we're talking definitions of Challenge I'll point to one game that is defined by the world Challenge. I speak of course of Monster Hunter. Let's take a fight from MH Tri, Blood Sport. In this mission you must fight two large monster simultaneously (Uragaan and Diablos) in a small arena. You get 3 deaths and then you fail the mission. No matter how much you read up on this mission, even knowing what to do will not save you if you aren't skilled enough yourself to take it on with your team. If any individual member is not personally skilled enough to handle the mission, there's no point in even trying. You can know all the strategies you want but they won't help you if you can't execute them flawlessly.

That is challenge. Something where, even if you know everything about it, it's still difficult and hinges upon each player's individual skill.

What Abriel is saying is that it doesn't matter what the death penalty is, if content is challenging enough that it hinges upon your skill then there's no way you can complete it if you suck penalty or not.

Take something like Ureaus that has the half-hour rage timer. If that fight were challenging, it would take a full group of highly skilled individuals with a good plan almost the entire half hour to take down. Everyone would have to be skilled enough and knowledgeable enough to take it down or the whole thing would fall apart. Currently it is not that challenging but that is an example of how something would be challenging. Even without a death penalty, the challenge is still there and you still have to think and act quickly.

[Abriael]

If they are going online to look it up, then they are putting thought into it and planning... sorry, even the best "instructions" won't play the game for you.

Umm... "challenging" content can be looked up online too... what's your point?

You can look an encounter online, but if the encounter is actually difficult to *play*, the challenge remains, and it cancels the need of any death penalty, which is just an added timesink.

Why? Because failing the encounter is a penalty in itself, and zerging isn't enough or viable.

You can have challenging content and a death penalty. For many gamers, its more fun... risk increases the feeling of satisfaction.

Risking what? Wasting time? oh the risk. the thrill!

lol I can't believe I'm hearing this. "Timesinks just waste time so we shouldn't have them because it makes the game not fun". Alright, so by your logic, we should be able to hit level cap in one kill and get max gil from the first leve we accomplish. Oh, and we should have unlimited Anima so we can teleport anywhere anytime we want, cause afterall, running is a timesink. Oh, and we should get rid of animations too, since they just waste time. Crafting and gathering minigames? Yeah, they're out too.

There are timesinks justified by gameplay needs, and timesinks that simply have no justification. Experience penalties belong to the second group, and that's why basically every modern MMO developer did away with them. They noticed that they are redundant and add absolutely no challenge.
I would not even go near expecting SE or anyone else to go back to such an antiquated and surpassed system.

What section is it in? It's not in general discussion, Information, or Updates. And I never asked you to translate the whole thing... a few excerpts would have been fine.

That's why we have a dev tracker. The Japanese aren't like us, and post topics in the right forums instead of just dumping all the trash in general discussion. So the place you want to look will obviously be "battle systems".
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%84%E3%81%A6
Provide a link or tell me which section it's in, if it exists, and I will read it.[/QUOTE]