The truth is we need a remastered XI or a follow up

[Shougun]

Just a note on game time and horizontal-

Game time:
ARR:


HW:


Stormblood:


Shadowbringers:


Endwalker:


Now it's all self reported, yada, yada, but we also have Yoshida during reveals talking about rough hours. I like to use about 75 for ARR and then 50 for every expansion there after. So ~275 hours for just MSQ and other required content (like doing your job quest). Naturally if you did all the side content, weeeeee.

For context finishing Friends from start to finish is like 90 hours. Or like doing most content in witcher 3 for 100 hours.

It's a long time man... I've played roughly parallel the whole time so for me it hasn't felt that bad, and for people who want story as primary content only then it's also probably fine, but there are a lot of other people with different styles and 275 hours of essentially a corridor with tight guard rails is a lot lol. It is the reason why I suggested alternate start (which doesn't change lore of the game) that would still teach players and introduce them to the game but get them much deeper much faster and they can optionally come back and remove the amnesia they're suffering lol.


Now on Horizontal:

As mentioned in my other post on how it seems like a lot of people, a lot of the same people who are suffering from lack of hard content, really are just looking for a world to delve into and feel immersed (and difficulty isn't "really" their issue), and while we were talking about FFXI horizontal I'd like to point out two things to carry on the point...
1) A few people here mentioning value of gear even though it's not too hard to catch up, or that the goals feel good- and looking at those goals and systems you can tell in FFXI the game is a lot easier than it was, the combat isn't really that complicated (nor boss mechanics), yet it just 'sticks' with them (reiterating it isn't wholly about savage + stuff), and;
2) GW2 is an interesting example of horizontal content as they have tier system where you can very readily catch up with a few % to 'end game', and then with a bit of investment pretty much actually on top of top tier stats for a specific build, but they also have 'relic' quests for gear that are honestly not that 'hard' in sense of savage challenge they're just a big goal to go towards.

These games are insanely complicated and everything has implications folded onto their implications but I feel / wonder if it would not have been better to focus on more creative item design than linear simple 1 after the other as no one ever feels connected to anything except maybe their ultimate or relic. Both of those games (FFXI, GW2) are not too 'hard' in terms of gameplay skill for most things (there is a subsection that is hard), and I'd argue honestly FFXI wasn't really hard on the self as much as it was luck, preparation, perseverance, and your teammates leaving their dodo at home. Which might make it sound hard but in so much that like Elden Ring is only hard if you're not prepared, bring a heal to those mutli-armed dudes.. they're cake walk, bring shackles to Margot, etc. Though I would still say Elden Ring is on average harder lol, just that like when people talk about FFXI challenge I'm more thinking like in FFXIV I press way more buttons in way more patterns responding to way more mechanics, FFXI had strict rules but honestly it was not really gameplay skill hard but 'knowledge hard', and now it's even less hard with primarily knowledge still being the difficulty.

Personally I think gameplay skill harder solo games is quite fun, but I don't really enjoy harder MMO content because people are people and it's difficult to accomplish great things unless you put yourself in an environment where you can control participation (which is now me needing to go out advertise / wait for groups, and I'd rather just have a plan and act on it when I want to act on it)- I actually enjoy the dungeons when people are not doing very well because it allows me to try hard and show off, or alternatively if I'm dying cause I'm new to a raid and didn't bother to read the guide because YOLO, it's not savage lol, and the healer actually gets to do something and we laugh about it (and I've a sense that the DD getting a commendation when they died is because of a good time and not because I ate the floor for a pity commendation).

Sooo anyways, since we have the new mmo thread and some talk of other mmo (FFXI).. just wanted to paint my story for the next potential FF mmo.. That it could capture a lot of things people are hoping for without actually being a giant pain in your choco boco, and for the most part could still respect your time. I think spending a lot more time on the loops and interactions that 'ground' players in the world is important, and is a major reason why when people ask what I wish/ed for FFXIV is gameplay enacted roleplay, but also perhaps strongly consider moving to a more horizontal itemization system that encourages builds. With very reasonable catch up and then long term goals. You can still have the ultimate type stuff but honestly from watching people and their issues, I don't think most really needed that, and clearly most already don't play that, it's needing a feeling of grounding and things to do.. particularly for the people though that ask for ultimate like stuff its major team oriented goals.

Like a lot of gripe, imo, from the recent relic isn't that tomes don't have major benefits but that it's just exceptionally transparent grind mechanic that has little grounding.. and that is not me saying it needs to be OG Atma pain, I still like stuff being relatively reasonable for a low per hour player (me), but that trying to tell the story with:


(weak grounding, obvious systems, few things feel unique or special)

is a lot harder than this:

(Still magic, could really be the same as above but importantly presentation is wrapped together with a bow).

Hoping next one might be the best of ESO, GW2, WS, FFXIV, FFXI, etc... Still casual friendly, but high roleplay action, like playing a different job is just a new game experience. Don't like melee on monk? Guess what Dragoon feels worlds different even though it is also melee. Want to adventure to the next town, at least the first time, expect a grand story. Yet you want to make reasonable progress in the game with 30 minutes? Yeah you can do that. So for example in GW2 the zone scales to you but your kit is still your own, I've found it fun to be able to do some older stuff with 'power' yet also not so much that rewards and combat is pointless (and I appreciate the FATEs are usually more unique and far more dynamic in their scaling, and due to reward systems usually also easy to get people on the more involved ones that can't scale as well). Just loads of stuff like that.

I honestly think that is why OG WoW did as well as it did, wasn't because of it's hard content (which it had), but because it was the most casual yet grounded MMO available- player participation in hard content has always been iffy, even in WoW (though higher participation that ours, generally speaking).. and I don't mean to say that to remove it (leave it for people who play a lot, they need something lol), just that I really don't think that is ever the problem with these games. "Not enough hard content!" and I'm like.. doubting that lol. "Not enough grounded content that makes me feel like I'm progressing in a living, valuable, world" ...yeah okay, especially because we're on a treadmill. Another reason why I've been thinking more to horizontal progression and further doubting that hard content is the problem, you can watch over time as people burn themselves out and groups fall apart for hard content-- but the social, housing, type stuff never gets old, and the goal and joy of getting something that is going to remain valuable for sometime vs "new thing for a few months" does.

I mean looking at Wildstar it was dying on it's difficulty and challenge and only lived as long as it did due to the other elements.

The treadmill of linear growth, just like the burnout I feel many experience doing the variations of hard content, especially when combined (temporary treadmills of linear growth + endless variations of similar hard content), produces what I would imagine is like being forced to remove your tinted glasses. As the machinations continue it weathers away your vision until, imo, you see a lot of jaded players who are constantly chasing the high they used to have for the game and no matter what the devs do (even as stuff gets more and more convoluted mechanically, which players make addons for lol), it just can't ever be enough.

Now taking a step back I do imagine some people are actually just pain monsters who live to be challenged and care nothing for anything else, but I imagine, and feel, that the challenge while a function to be used isn't really the problem, and watching the forums over the years, as well as other games, I feel it's more and more obvious the truth that people want to exist in a space that feels like it exists.

[Jkap_Goat]

The only thing I hated about it was having to resummon them after EVERY level. But considering how long it can take to get a level sometimes, that's a mild complaint. Shantotto still best destroyer.

I went 5 levels without resummoning trusts also don't forget about King of Hearts with Shantotto II, what I love about FFXI trusts is that they have synergy buff with some trusts which is really cool

[Ath192]

Sorry, but I don't miss sitting around for 20 minutes waiting for the airship, then spending another 10 minutes doing absolutely nothing riding the airship. That stuff was a pointless time sink for the sake of a time sink. There's nothing immersive about that, its just annoying.

I do, I distinctly remember striking up conversations with other people since we were just chilling. Or people fishing on the side of the ship. I even remember missing the ship, and the feeling of adrenaline and subsequent disappointment when I tried to make it and it left me lmao. It sucked but I remember it. I remember sea monks killing hapless people. I remember that occasionally pirates would hijack the ship.

You know what I don't remember? Any events that transpired while getting to any city in Eorzea. Ever. And I'm not talking about the quest, I'm talking about the physical journey that it took to get anywhere. Heck, this is even why fetch quests absolutely blow in XIV.

There's some fetch quests in XI where you have to go in super deep into absolutely infested places with nothing but horrors inside them waiting to kill you. And navigating that and coming out alive was insane.

That same quest in XIV I would fly in, mobs would aggro me, I would straight up ignore them or blast them to pieces and run out in less than 30 seconds. In fact, Mobs are such a joke I normally time the auto attacks to see if I can get the object from the ground in between them before I get interrupted because I respect them so little they are not even worth acknowledging.

You try doing the same to a banshee in XI and see how that goes.

Can we maybe agree that being an untouchable, unkillable god in the world ruins any game? Because I feel like that in XIV all the time, and its boring. This mostly overworld stuff yes I raid and have my face blown off regularly but only in "SE approved instances" because the rest of the world can't have any danger. Everyone's safety is SE's priority. In a game about adventure and said dangers >.>

[Shougun]

On boats, and I can't speak for all of them, but I remember 2 - 5 minute boat, zepplin, and tram rides in WoW. First tram ride from Ironlag to Stormwind was really fun. Certainly the longer ones have a more lasting impact on the idea of distance but personally I don't think there would be anything wrong with a mix of one off longer rides and then shorter more tolerable rides then further mixed in with an evolution of transportation.

It's kind of funny, and slightly vindicating, to have some odd years later see things like GW2 top mount system in MMOs or players talking about travel. . . Funny circle (while GW2's system is awesome and I've tried it, just want to say I did make my suggestion of movement gameplay prior to GW2's so it's not like an obsession with GW2 specifically). I've honestly never really wanted people to consistently travel for long periods of time, but and perhaps not as well described as I could have back then, constantly been talking about the importance of gameplay systems as simple in appearance as travel...

I still think teleports are important, but if travel could become it's own GAMEIFIED progression.. I think that'd be pretty good, and can coexist in a casual environment (though that does mean limited number of times to be expected to do anything that takes a while, original FFXI transportation mechanics and limited teleports even at end game wouldn't work).

[MaxCarnage]

I don't think I'd commonly say it takes a year. But a year is also way more common than we'd like to think. I have several friends (and my SO) that are going at that pace, treating it like a normal FF and only able to put a few hours in a week.

Being the MMO goblin that I am, even I can't imagine finishing all of the ARR-Endwalker MSQ in under a month. I'd be so exhausted.. Imagine doing each expac in a week. That's a full-time job of just Visual Novel.

Ah, my mistake. I didn't go back to read your post so I thought you were also talking about playing casually every day. Yes, it could take a year, but as you said, that is fairly uncommon case and very minimal playtime per week.

Either way, the msq taking only 2-3 hours for a week straight to complete is utterly fabricated

[Ath192]

On boats, and I can't speak for all of them, but I remember 2 - 5 minute boat, zepplin, and tram rides in WoW. First tram ride from Ironlag to Stormwind was really fun. Certainly the longer ones have a more lasting impact on the idea of distance but personally I don't think there would be anything wrong with a mix of one off longer rides and then shorter more tolerable rides then further mixed in with an evolution of transportation.

It's kind of funny, and slightly vindicating, to have some odd years later see things like GW2 top mount system in MMOs or players talking about travel. . . Funny circle (while GW2's system is awesome and I've tried it, just want to say I did make my suggestion of movement gameplay prior to GW2's so it's not like an obsession with GW2 specifically). I've honestly never really wanted people to consistently travel for long periods of time, but and perhaps not as well described as I could have back then, constantly been talking about the importance of gameplay systems as simple in appearance as travel...

I still think teleports are important, but if travel could become it's own GAMEIFIED progression.. I think that'd be pretty good, and can coexist in a casual environment (though that does mean limited number of times to be expected to do anything that takes a while, original FFXI transportation mechanics and limited teleports even at end game wouldn't work).

Let me tell you a compromise that I think would be super fun. Imagine if the ship ride to Thavnair was a regular ferry ride that did travel from Limsa to Thavnair and its a dangerous journey to yeah things like mobs and pirates and storms can appear and stuff. The ride lasts 15-20 minutes or something lengthy but not dreadful.

Now once you get there fine you can attune and whatnot so you don't have to take it in the future. BUT, can you imagine the hype when the new expansion releases and a bunch of people visiting the new zone are hopping on board just waiting to get to the destination and see what its all about. Just the level of life and conversations that something so simple would add to the game and it would make the world feel so much bigger.

That's what is missing.

But nah, you literally appear there and someone pukes their guts out.

[Shougun]

Let me tell you a compromise that I think would be super fun. Imagine if the ship ride to Thavnair was a regular ferry ride that did travel from Limsa to Thavnair and its a dangerous journey to yeah things like mobs and pirates and storms can appear and stuff. The ride lasts 15-20 minutes or something lengthy but not dreadful.

Now once you get there fine you can attune and whatnot so you don't have to take it in the future. BUT, can you imagine the hype when the new expansion releases and a bunch of people visiting the new zone are hopping on board just waiting to get to the destination and see what its all about. Just the level of life and conversations that something so simple would add to the game and it would make the world feel so much bigger.

That's what is missing.

But nah, you literally appear there and someone pukes their guts out.

Imo not really a comprimse, that's essentially the type of stuff I think is fair game lol.

For things you might do multiple times until you unlock some progression in transportation they should be under double digit minutes, like how you ride a boat in WoW maybe a handful of times for 1 to 5 minutes, and if they're one offs and especially meant to be epic journeys... why not?

Of course the time spent waiting is gameplay in and of itself, so there should be things to do / think about. Not just 10 to 20 minute loading screen, but I'm sure you didn't mean that.. just stating the obvious for people who don't find it obvious.

For a long time 'movement' has been gameplay to me, and should be treated as such, but besides a very few specific games hasn't really been seen until more recently where it's now been more recognized across the genres.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Imo not really a comprimse, that's essentially the type of stuff I think is fair game lol.

For things you might do multiple times until you unlock some progression in transportation they should be under double digit minutes, like how you ride a boat in WoW maybe a handful of times for 1 to 5 minutes, and if they're one offs and especially meant to be epic journeys... why not?

Of course the time spent waiting is gameplay in and of itself, so there should be things to do / think about. Not just 10 to 20 minute loading screen, but I'm sure you didn't mean that.. just stating the obvious for people who don't find it obvious.

For a long time 'movement' has been gameplay to me, and should be treated as such, but besides a very few specific games hasn't really been seen until more recently where it's now been more recognized across the genres.

Besides, if I had to wait 15-20 minutes to travel somewhere, I'd just be talking to friends on discord or doing something else/YouTube. At this stage I honestly have no intention of chatting with randoms, and if it's mandatory for getting somewhere story related, you'd always have trolls intentionally spoiling things.

[Shougun]

Besides, if I had to wait 15-20 minutes to travel somewhere, I'd just be talking to friends on discord or doing something else/YouTube. At this stage I honestly have no intention of chatting with randoms, and if it's mandatory for getting somewhere story related, you'd always have trolls intentionally spoiling things.

I would only really suggest such a long time, which it is, once, and there should be a decent amount of content to do- like talking to NPCs for lore, mini-games, etc. Then because it's best not to have one off content with a lot of resources, and it would be nice to have players be together, also consider things like adding Ocean fishing to THAT space. So there is a backdrop of players.

Depending on context you could even be as wild as adding seasonal / in game seasonal events to the rides (players can always get off whether by teleporting out or perhaps just a simple skip button if they've done it before).

If it was literally 15 minutes of loading screen then.. the sense of scale of the world could be handled by the few minute rides like I suggested WoW did better than FFXI (imo). And again I still believe in progression of transportation. If it takes you 20 minutes to do the basic content you wanted to do on your 30 minute game session, then we really messed up lol.

[SieyaM]

My MMO experience begins all the way back in Everquest, and while it was fun and immersive, at this point in my life I just don't have the time and patience to deal with what is required to do even the most basic of tasks in there, and XI seems to fall in the same category. Taking months upon months to level, or acquire gear just aren't something I have the desire to keep up with anymore. A lot of people that think they want a remaster or remake of XI would probably lose interest when they find out they have to start at level 1 with no gear and no skill or spells. I feel like what they like is being on top in that kind of environment, where new players are put out while they have the better gear and skills because they started at a time when a community supported them and helped them acquire it.