Anyone else think caster has suffered this expansion? (hopes for the future)

[Ggwppino]

Again, a vague answer with no real definition. Lyth has already mentioned the issue.

Let's do this: what does knowing how to play a class mean to you? (Personally, we assume that I will never accept a: You must be Cristiano Ronaldo or you don't know how to play football or You must be Bill Gates or you don't know how to develop, or you must be Hideo Kojima or you don't know how to design a videogame)

Again, a vague answer. You need a difference between the baseline and what is expected for the harder content. So, what is generally an accepted increase? 1% isn't going to be enough, 100% too much (i suspect), so, somewhere in the middle. This whole thing started with the drive to optimise and get better, so, what DPS incentive do you need to put that extra work in. It should be a simple question that isn't setting anything in concrete. More of what you yourself feel that would be acceptable. It should not be this hard.

I suppose a designer thinks, when doing high-level content with a dps check, that the player with that class must do at least, let's say, 100 damage output. If you get 150, it has over-optimized your rotation for your only pleasure, if you get 60 it's time to think about how to optimize your rotation in order to clear high-level content. I consider your question to be wrong from the start.

Making me read between the lines is where misconceptions and assumptions are made. This is what I am trying to avoid. As I have said, I want to talk about the combat system from past expansions and how you thought it was better. I might agree with some points, I might challenge some, however, unless I have a basis to go off of, this discussion cannot happen. It almost seems like you are trying to avoid giving specifics for this exact reason.

yes, but in this case I have given clear and unquestionable examples. And you pretended not to understand

The old jobs require the player to manage more things or if we want to be picky they require to manage things.

I meant the new dps jobs: Dnc onwards. Out of 3 new jobs they've done, one emptier than the other.

Whilst SMN is an extreme example, I would not say it is the case for all jobs.

Smn is not an extreme case, it is a case of rework. Enochian become useless during expansions. Nin has not actually been heavely touched yet fortunately, unlike mnk: loses positionals, loses RoE trait and loses RoE actually.

Not always, if something is not working right, or it feels bad to use, changing it or replacing it with something else that does work is indeed a QoL fix.

I understand how you mean it. Personally I mean it more with small obvious tricks that don't exist that don't touch heavely your rotation because I personally consider it a review or a rework. Gameplay QoL: if i have selected a party mate and press an offensive skill it is obvious i don't want to attack my party mate. Gameplay QoL: Enochian in shB was basically useless. UI QoL: I want to see everyone's active buffs. UI QoL: I want my buffs to stand out from the others.

Depends why the action was taken away/changed.

Same reason as above. Also if you want to take things away from me, maybe do me the decency to think of something else for me.

Is it accessibility to change Enochian to a trait where it basically became useless as a button? How about Blood of the Dragon? Greased Lighting? These were things that you never had to manage to one degree or another. So what is the point in keeping them? If keeping them as they are limited design choices, but changing them opened up new avenues for creativity, should it not be changed? You wouldn't have everything you have on BLM as it is now if Enochian wasn't changed, you might not have had LotD if BotD was kept as it was, MNK would have gone another expansion of getting nothing just because of GL.

I agree, but for the simple fact that they have become increasingly useless (for Enochian and Blood of the Dragon). So it's ok consider them as QoL.

[Mikey_R]

1. Let's do this: what does knowing how to play a class mean to you? (Personally, we assume that I will never accept a: You must be Cristiano Ronaldo or you don't know how to play football or You must be Bill Gates or you don't know how to develop, or you must be Hideo Kojima or you don't know how to design a videogame)

2. I suppose a designer thinks, when doing high-level content with a dps check, that the player with that class must do at least, let's say, 100 damage output. If you get 150, it has over-optimized your rotation for your only pleasure, if you get 60 it's time to think about how to optimize your rotation in order to clear high-level content. I consider your question to be wrong from the start.

3. yes, but in this case I have given clear and unquestionable examples. And you pretended not to understand

4. I meant the new dps jobs: Dnc onwards. Out of 3 new jobs they've done, one emptier than the other.

5. Smn is not an extreme case, it is a case of rework. Enochian become useless during expansions. Nin has not actually been heavely touched yet fortunately, unlike mnk: loses positionals, loses RoE trait and loses RoE actually.

1. I have already answered this in a previous post. Knowing your basic GCD rotation and the main job mechanic/gimmick. That is a solid foundation for someone to work towards, everything else is just everything else is essentially just optimising the damage from said foundation.

2. I didn't aske what a designer thinks, I asked what YOU thought. I also do not know how my question can be wrong? I simply asked what you thought the DPS difference between someone who knows the basics of a job compared to someone who has optimised it should be. Mainly out of curiosity.

3. Where? You have mentioned Summoner, which I have commented on, however, I asked for others. Or aare all the other jobs fine compared to past expansions? How about battle mechanics in general? I gave examples of what I was expecting, not necessarily in that amount of detail, however, again, I just wanted to know where your mindset was. What was it about past expansions battle systems/jobs that YOU liked more than now, with examples. Going back, you mentioned HW MCH and SAM, said nothing about what makes them lesser now than back then, you only mentioned positionals on monk as an off hand statement, was that all? Be specific. You didn't even really comment on the list I made of things that I thought you were talking about, except Monk.

4. Old jobs as in old jobs in the current expansion, old jobs as they were in past expansions? When I replied to the quoted text in question, it came with the implication that you were comparing old jobs as they were in past expansions to current expansion job design. Not comparing jobs in the new expansion with jobs from the newer expansions. Also, I am going to assume one of the new dps jobs was Summoner, of which I have already commented on and agreed that it is too simple, which is why I'm trying to get an idea on other jobs.

5. A rework that went too far. So, an extreme case of oversimplifying that is not the norm for reworks. How has Enochian become useless? Better yet, think about how current BLM works and then try and imagine fitting HW Enochian into that rotation. At the very least they would have had to increase the timer to account for all the extra spells that have been added, which means it will come off of cooldown before it is needed and so there is no tight timings for it, unlike HW. As for Ninja, Shadow Fang, Dancing Edge, Mutilate, the Venoms, enmity control, Goad, Assassinate separate from DWaD, Jugulate, all things removed from Ninja, not to mention the most controversial one in recent times in the change to Trick Attack and Mug. Also, if that is all you have to say about Monk, one of which I agree with, then there is nothing inherently wrong with the job as it stands now compared to older expansions. Kind of the complete opposite of what you have been trying to say.

Oh, and just to comment quickly on Dragoon's BotD, how do you think it would have been managed if BotD behaved like HW? Not going to lie, I started to go down a rabbit hole, but it ended up with timers not lining up as neatly as HW and having LotD not being able to be used in burst windows etc, and that was with the current QoL tied into LotD (only 2 eyes and LotD time not based on BotD being the main ones). Being completely optimistic, you could, in theory, go a whole fight and not drop BotD, which makes the button useless anyway, whch just puts us back to, if you only press it once at the start, why bother. So really, it is an even worse example than Enochian. At least that could theoretically fall off given time.

[Taranok]

So, coming in blind with my own thoughts irrespective of discussions happening so far. Endwalker has literally the worst end-game design the game has seen since Heavensward, and I've felt this more keenly as a caster main than anything else, because casters have basically been forgotten by the devs. So, let's look at the problem as a whole.

• First things first, Summoner isn't a caster.

Just ripping this band-aid off. Summoner isn't a caster. The devs reduced the number of casters from 3 to 2 going into Endwalker.

• Red Mage has never been a true caster (gatekeeping, I know,) and it still is suffering this expansion. A lot more.

Red Mage was always the highest mobility caster innately, with the lowest ad-hoc movement. The problem is, now it's a mid-mobility caster that's oddly more restrictive in movement than Black Mage.

• Both Red Mage and Summoner represent the direction the devs want ranged to go. This hyper-mobility meta.

This is where the crux of all of the caster problems come from. Look at, say, God Kefka, or Neo Exdeath. Even Omega. Compare that to Titan Savage and TEA, then compare it to Shiva Savage and anything after it. How much movement do you have to do? I estimate in TEA that the average movement you have to do in a ~50 yalm radius arena is about 7 times from edge to edge during uptime on the fight in its entire 16 minutes of the fight. It happens sporadically, can be planned for, and is fairly loose on tolerance.

Compare this to P7S, where you have to cross about an 80-yalm arena from edge to edge 7 times in 2 minutes. In what world can Black Mage, a class that might have access to 7 movement GCDs every minute expected to fit into this? There is no amount of aetherial manipulation you can do to reasonably handle P7S as a black mage. And that's 2 minutes of a savage fight.

So, let's bring this back to the final point.

• Black Mage is a job designed for a game that stopped existing in mid-shadowbringers.

Some people might remember me making a post talking about the awful state Black Mage is in in endwalker. The situation has only gotten worse over time. The devs are designing too precise a game with too much movement for Black Mage to reasonably fit into the game

Part of the problem is, simply, that Endwalker has way too much movement. Part of it is that Black Mage is a class designed around being as lazy and immobile as possible. Part of it is that Black Mage is the only 'true' caster left that has to actually hardcast most of its GCDs, and the devs clearly aren't designing the game with this class existing anymore.

There's a reason the Black Mage population has collapsed since Endwalker launched.

But there's a lot of other reasons why this is a problem. Moving on.

1. Mechanics are paced too quickly, especially for more immobile jobs.
2. The amount of precision required is unreal.
3. Every single mechanic requires jogging halfway across the arena, at least, with very little exception to it, for every fight except Rubicante Extreme.
4. Every mechanic also is incredibly intolerant to lag, I have wiped runs because I see 3 mechanics happening simultaneously from not even half a second of packet loss.
5. Non-melee don't do real damage.
6. There are way too many mechanics, where if 1 person fails, it just wipes.

These are general problems of Endwalker's fight design, and can most easily be seen in the final boss of Tower of Zot, where it's best described as mechanics overload, extreme movement, random-feeling mechanics, and good luck enjoying being a caster.

All of this culminates into a game where you have to randomly and unexpectedly drop casts, run across absolutely massive arenas into very specific spots, in DPS checks that are way too tight, with classes the devs literally forgot exist in the game, because they're trying to design new and interesting mechanics by literally repeating every single mistake that made Heavensward a disaster of gameplay. Only this time with extreme levels of movement.

Black Mage is an absolute disaster this expansion, and I can say this with confidence having finally decided to prog DSR on black mage, getting all the way to phase 7 on an 11% wipe literally within the past 24 hours clearing the fight as Black Mage, and just thinking about how much I have to think about this garbage bin of a class just to play what used to be my favorite playstyle in the game, a playstyle the devs clearly believe is no longer a valid way to enjoy the game.

And, Black Mage is also the canary in the coal mine of casters. Any problem that affects casters in general, will be most keenly seen on Black Mage. And boy have I seen it, the class is only rivaled by Bard and, oddly enough despite its good position, Monk for the least popular classes in the game.

You might consider this more a rant against endwalker fight design, but when I say black mage is the only true caster, I mean that healers only cast 1.5s of every 2.5s of GCDs without hardcasting heals. RDM doesn't even cast 40% of its spells, and Summoner oddly can cast fewer buttons than Samurai, which says a lot about the state that class is in as a caster.

In summation: Developers, if you actually read or get this translated, please save my role, and please save my favorite class, Black Mage.

I really shouldn't be feeling like Black Mage was better designed in an expansion where Enochian was a 30s buff that was refreshed. But the way Endwalker is designed, I'd rather be a Black Mage in Heavensward doing Nidhogg Extreme when enochian would be force-dropped by adds than Black Mage as it exists now in Endwalker. And as the last, actual caster left in a game that wants to turn casters into fake-physical ranged DPS, this entire role needs to not only be saved, but actively catered to.

Summoner is popular not because it's explicitly easy, but because it's the only caster designed to exist in the fights the devs are actually making.

[Semirhage]

And as the last, actual caster left in a game that wants to turn casters into fake-physical ranged DPS, this entire role needs to not only be saved, but actively catered to.

Summoner is popular not because it's explicitly easy, but because it's the only caster designed to exist in the fights the devs are actually making.

There's a long essay in my head that I won't type out now, but I think this is both true and a phenomenon not unique to FFXIV. It's something I frame as "fighters vs mages". The gaming landscape shift of "oh thank god, Action Combat is here to finally provide real, good battle content" is a product of catering to people who prefer twitch reflexes and having 2-3 buttons to mash (fighters) over strategic placement, spell fencing, chess fights (mages). Action combat isn't "better", it's a preferred playstyle hip-checking mage players to the wayside by designing combat systems to favor high mobility and button mashing, turning RPG combat largely from an INT check to all DEX checks.

Needless to say I'm not fond of the industry shift to Action Combat, but here we are. Your mages are no longer reality warping turrets with powers both mysterious and gross. They're sparkle archers. You will alternate ze attack and dodge roll button and you will like it.

[Taranok]

There's a long essay in my head that I won't type out now, but I think this is both true and a phenomenon not unique to FFXIV. It's something I frame as "fighters vs mages". The gaming landscape shift of "oh thank god, Action Combat is here to finally provide real, good battle content" is a product of catering to people who prefer twitch reflexes and having 2-3 buttons to mash (fighters) over strategic placement, spell fencing, chess fights (mages). Action combat isn't "better", it's a preferred playstyle hip-checking mage players to the wayside by designing combat systems to favor high mobility and button mashing, turning RPG combat largely from an INT check to all DEX checks.

Needless to say I'm not fond of the industry shift to Action Combat, but here we are. Your mages are no longer reality warping turrets with powers both mysterious and gross. They're sparkle archers. You will alternate ze attack and dodge roll button and you will like it.

I actually think the problem is simpler, and it's the devs fundamentally misunderstanding the playerbase's requests while dealing with a mature game that hasn't had a truly new mechanic since Stormblood (though honorable mentions for twice come ruin and fate calibration.) But maybe you're correct. We can't simply ask the devs. Yet, if their goal is to make all classes twitch-based and high-movement, they may as well delete black mage and red mage, or turn them into ranged physical DPS, as I don't see a world where black mage can exist on the route the devs are taking the game.

Likewise, if the next DPS added isn't a caster in the same playstyle as black mage, then black mage is well and truly a dead playstyle.

[Zakuyia]

XD You talk about casters im sitting in the machinist corner hoping for some kinda miracle with this class .-.

[elioaiko]

It doesn't help that caster hasn't had a new job since StB.

On top of the devs trying to make melee more accessible/less punishing.

Naturally, there are more melee dps players than casters.

And SMN being very barebones after the rework.

Personally there's not enough variety.

I'm hoping for a proper dot mage, but the devs hate pets, dots, healers, tanks, phys ranged so probably not too hopefully.

[Sequora]

I’ve posted about this several times, but caster suffers from the sub category dilemma. Meaning we have two types of casters. We have two casters who are balanced around utility that does not contribute to damage (summoner and red mage having Rez), and then we have a “selfish caster” black mage.

This is not the same as melee with SAM being the selfish DPS and the others having utility. The reason being, melee DPS are all supposed to be balanced around their personal DPS plus the extra DPS their buffs provide.

A summoner or a red mage also provide damage, but their damage plus their damage boosting utility does not equal the damage of a black mage.

They pay a Rez tax.

[Picker]

The playerbase in general is becoming hostile to adjusting around blm, it’s like mmo teamwork out the window, just play summoner so no one has to think or adjust. Makes me sad

[Taranok]

I’ve posted about this several times, but caster suffers from the sub category dilemma. Meaning we have two types of casters. We have two casters who are balanced around utility that does not contribute to damage (summoner and red mage having Rez), and then we have a “selfish caster” black mage.

This is not the same as melee with SAM being the selfish DPS and the others having utility. The reason being, melee DPS are all supposed to be balanced around their personal DPS plus the extra DPS their buffs provide.

A summoner or a red mage also provide damage, but their damage plus their damage boosting utility does not equal the damage of a black mage.

They pay a Rez tax.

Res utility is also a rather serious problem. Say what you will about lore. Black Mage not having a res is just as serious a problem as SMN/RDM having a res. Red Mage, despite not having personal mit (no, vercure does not count,) has Magick Barrier, which presents a serious problem for BLM and SMN by existing. It's as serious a problem as MCH being given dismantle when DNC has a very limited party barrier and a less limited heal, and Bard has +healing. But now imagine if DNC/BRD didn't even have that much.

And this is before weighing in that Red Mage was always caster-lite, SMN isn't a caster, and BLM is the only class in the game with its playstyle at a core level. Most classes have analogs. ranged physical are the best examples. Want a busy job with a lot of randomness? Bard. Want a less-busy class with some randomness? Dancer. Want a class with no randomness but still decently busy in the same playstyle? Machinist.

The closest thing to Black Mage's playstyle was Shadowbringer's White Mage. And that was removed as a playstyle alternative once they made all healers have a 1.5s cast time for all spells.

I know you're mostly talking about utility versus not, but Black Mage is especially a mushroom in that the devs literally don't have any class close to its general playstyle, in a niche they're actively removing for any of a variety of reasons.

Going back on your analogy, Samurai has alternatives. If you want a similar speed class with a different level of business? Ninja (admittedly, I prefer HW ninja over modern ninja, ninki always felt bad.) Want even faster with fewer oGCDs? Monk. Too fast for you? You have Dragoon and Reaper with a more rigid and more freeform version of strongly combo-based rotations. SAM is squarely in the middle of MDPS' general playstyle and the extremes are still decently familiar.

This is then further subdivided into combo based (E.G. DRG,) and more freeform rotations (E.G. MNK/RPR.) If you want the comfort of a static rotation, you have it. If you want freeform, it's there. BLM doesn't even have anything close to it. Even the jump from BLM to RDM is as wide a gulf as going from DRG to GNB.