Anyone else think caster has suffered this expansion? (hopes for the future)

[Mikey_R]

Because in the quest to make it easy for raiders to do damage, the rest of the content has not been adjusted so mainly all I need to clear a dungeon or even a raid is a tank, perhaps a healer if you want to speed things up. To your point everyone is basically a DPS and casual content is a zerg basically. Some of this is due to fight design and player experience, but as I keep saying I also think part of it is that jons havr been made easier, higher damage, more defensive options etc.

I do not see what balance between the jobs has anything to do with this.

Raiders are not advocating to makes jobs easier, it tends to be other players who say it is too hard.

In regards to job kits, each expansion is balanced around the job's new kits and the extra damage they do. All the small buffs you see every now and then in patch notes really do not increase damage much, so that will not impact clear times much. As for making jobs easier, that is to lower the skill floor, so that it is easier for the lower skilled players to do more damage, and bring them inline with the damage the content is actually balanced around.

However, you STILL haven't said WHY the jobs feel unbalanced. You have just made some vague statements, but you haven't explained them.

[Ggwppino]

Again, the vague statement of, 'knowing what you are doing' doesn't help. What level of knowing is required. Knowing you have to hit the boss with things is knowing what you are doing, but it doesn't mean you know how to play your job. This is where my example of someone not doing a basic combo right came into it. Technically, doing 321 is knowing what you are doing (hitting the boss), but noone is going to call that someone knowing what they are doing. So there is a minimum level that is acceptable, this is different between different people. I already stated my point, I'm just trying to pry out something a bit more concrete than 'know what you are doing'.

Knowing how to play the class comes when you no longer feel lost when you play it. End. It's not vague. I don't know what you expect besides saying this.

But what is fair? This is the same question I ask whenever someone brings up complexity, or depth or any other vague term. You have to have some idea about a rough range that would be deemed acceptable. Of course, it is going to fluctuate, but there must be some range you are aiming for. What is the reward for learning the job.

The approximate range is that value that makes you clear high-level content. Is it 10%,20%,30%,40%,50%? It's the same, the reward of getting to a good degree of optimization is the ability to clear high-level content, the rest is just for pure personal enjoyment. The rest of the optimization reward is just for the glory.

And again I asked for specifics about older expansions and what made them fun to learn, or what they did right, and you have once again failed to provide any sort of response. I can only assume, therefore, that you have nothing to provide. If you do want to comment on it, you don't even need to make a comprehensive list, just a few specific examples so that I can know where your thinking lies.

But between the lines I gave you some examples come on!
"You knew the old smn had two dots and the aim was to keep them active constantly, with the old smn you knew you had to use tri-disaster and its reset timer and with the old smn you knew you had to use your ruin 4 stack ... With the same blm you know you have to have mana to do damage but stay as little time as possible in the ice phase, keep your dot up and have movement when needed, take advantage of paradox, transpose, procs, triplecast."

Shall we take the new smn? "honey, press the 2 buttons as you want. Ah, be careful babe, you have 6 seconds of casting every minute, it's dangerous!"

The old jobs require the player to manage more things or if we want to be picky they require to manage things.

Also slowly they are taking stuff away from the other classes without giving anything in return. And you can very well tell me: QoL, but QoL doesn't take away things to do but improve what you are doing. QoL means join phoenix and bahamut (because they basically were the same button: they were consequential every minute). QoL means autotarget boss when u use an attack. QoL means having the pet ranged attack and leaving the melee autoattack to reduce ghosting, it doesn't mean taking away the manage of dots, casts, stacks and placement of the pet. QoL doesn't mean take all positionals off me. QoL doesn't mean taking skills off me because they have to be assigned to others. QoL does not mean reduce my rotation to 123 combos that light up like tanks. QoL does not mean increasing the range of a skill by 200% because I don't know how to position myself. QoL doesn't mean taking away a skill that is the heart of the class. QoL doesn't mean increasing the hitbox of boss by "area of ​​the whole arena". QoL doesn't mean remove the task from tanks to place bosses well.
Accessibility != deprive of everything that can be optimized. Accessibility, and I repeat myself, is the way in which you make the job accessible, you accompany the player to learn it through various methodologies, not that of giving the baby food ready. It's an insult to the intelligence of the players first of all but makes the game monotonous and everything already learned and discovered.

Also there should be some kind of balance between the classes: as it was for casters in past expansions and as it is for melee. Why should a player, cynically speaking, play blm and get his guts rotten if smn doesn't bring big optimizations to do but is a self-playing class and has a big damage output with minimal variance? Why should a static risk bringing a blm that needs to understand how to optimize itself even during raids, when it can be on the safe side with a smn that just needs to have played it one day as a maximum requirement? Here are two thing: or remove the optimizations from everyone making the jobs embarrassingly the same and empty, or reverse the course which in the long term is perhaps the most sensible one with classes that have their own core and resources to manage and optimize.

[Lyth]

Your definition sets an incredibly low bar for what constitutes 'knowing how to play a job.' There are plenty of people who don't 'feel lost' when playing a job freestyle but have no clue what they're doing. Conscious competence is only the final step in skill acquisition.

Reading through your post, it sounds like you find BLM to be too difficult and you're not having fun on it. And if there's enough people echoing that sentiment, the developer tendency is to simplify it down.

[Ggwppino]

Your definition sets an incredibly low bar for what constitutes 'knowing how to play a job.' There are plenty of people who don't 'feel lost' when playing a job freestyle but have no clue what they're doing. Conscious competence is only the final step in skill acquisition.

But in casual content Is It really relevant? When a player want play high level content, he will crash with optimization gap requested and he's pushed to optimize (and until now thats It). But if designers for a fantastic accessibility crusade remove this gap, What Is the point to play?

Reading through your post, it sounds like you find BLM to be too difficult and you're not having fun on it. And if there's enough people echoing that sentiment, the developer tendency is to simplify it down.

uhmm no, in fact for me the smn should have optimization like all class (also blm) i think Is really bad have a class like new smn. Its a dangerous precedent for the game in many aspect (from empty levelling experience but expecially for almost non-existenting optimization). Seems a class make with listlessness by designers.

[Lyth]

You're revising your previous definition. Your new definition of 'knowing how to play a job' is not merely a sense of 'not feeling lost', but rather being able to do raid level optimization on it, which is a standard I'd agree with. Did you have a change of heart on your earlier discussion points?

I think if your primary concern is that you find that optimizing SMN is unsatisfying, the solution is to look at ways to improve SMN's design to add more layers to its optimization. I think that should be your focus, rather than on how frustrated you are with having to optimize on BLM, because that just pushes for an unnecessary rework when there may be players who actually like the job's design.

One discussion point that I'm always interested is in how expansion abilities impact a rotation. If you were limited to adding three new abilities to SMN next expansion to maximize the depth that you're looking for, how would you go about it? I think that's the most useful sort of feedback at this point in the expansion cycle, because otherwise they might come back with a Ruin V animation reskin or something else equally uninteresting. Working with what you've got, how can you make it better?

[Ggwppino]

You're revising your previous definition. Your new definition of 'knowing how to play a job' is not merely a sense of 'not feeling lost', but rather being able to do raid level optimization on it, which is a standard I'd agree with

So by this reasoning either you are Max Verstappen or you don't know how to drive?

Did you have a change of heart on your earlier discussion points?

I think if your primary concern is that you find that optimizing SMN is unsatisfying, the solution is to look at ways to improve SMN's design to add more layers to its optimization. I think that should be your focus, rather than on how frustrated you are with having to optimize on BLM, because that just pushes for an unnecessary rework when there may be players who actually like the job's design.

W8 my discussion points still the same. In my discussion i have every time made a distintct differentations between (summary):

know to play a job -> feels good with class after figuring out my skills and having button-skills in mind. i know what im doing, i clear casual content without problem

grades of optimization after know to play a job -> i know my class and I understand how to optimize my rotation constantly after dedication (with various levels of completeness). My reward is possibility to clear high level content and eternal glory when parse 100.

accessibility -> Does the game allow me to understand what I am learning during levelling? Does it offer me textual content and game content that allows me to understand the skills I'm learning and to get a more or less idea of ​​how to use them? ---- not equal to deprive of everything that can be optimized.


Furthermore i dont think that BLM Need a dps buff or some rework (I may have expressed myself badly, but I don't think so), but the dissatisfaction in my opinion is precisely the fact of having to compete with a class that should in current state be able to participate only in casual and old content for the reasons I wrote earlier. (And I write this from a person who has always the smn as main class on ff14)
so maybe you are confusing with another person

One discussion point that I'm always interested is in how expansion abilities impact a rotation. If you were limited to adding three new abilities to SMN next expansion to maximize the depth that you're looking for, how would you go about it? I think that's the most useful sort of feedback at this point in the expansion cycle, because otherwise they might come back with a Ruin V animation reskin or something else equally uninteresting. Working with what you've got, how can you make it better?

In fact, in various posts on ideas for smn I have expressed mine, especially in the one currently in evidence on forum. Clearly these are just proposals and mental movies because the trend will be just to add a new Ruin V animation reskin as you said.

[Shiroe]

this is how it once was or should be:

Sam= Blm (Top A dps, low R dps, No utility)
Mkn = Smn = Mch* (Mid A dps, Mid R dps, Mid utility)
Drg = Nin = (low A dps, Top R dps, No utility)
Rdm = Brd = Dnc (low A dps, mid R dps, Top utility)
...
* Mch should have some utility, ... if not, put it up there with Sam & Blm?? (utility, as support, not dps buffs)
...
forgot Rpr, not sure where to put

(R dps = dps buffs for others, utility = support for others, but NOT dps buffs)

edit: A & R dps should be much closer to eachother too..

[Mikey_R]

Knowing how to play the class comes when you no longer feel lost when you play it. End. It's not vague. I don't know what you expect besides saying this.

Again, a vague answer with no real definition. Lyth has already mentioned the issue.

The approximate range is that value that makes you clear high-level content. Is it 10%,20%,30%,40%,50%? It's the same, the reward of getting to a good degree of optimization is the ability to clear high-level content, the rest is just for pure personal enjoyment. The rest of the optimization reward is just for the glory.

Again, a vague answer. You need a difference between the baseline and what is expected for the harder content. So, what is generally an accepted increase? 1% isn't going to be enough, 100% too much (i suspect), so, somewhere in the middle. This whole thing started with the drive to optimise and get better, so, what DPS incentive do you need to put that extra work in. It should be a simple question that isn't setting anything in concrete. More of what you yourself feel that would be acceptable. It should not be this hard.

But between the lines I gave you some examples come on!

Making me read between the lines is where misconceptions and assumptions are made. This is what I am trying to avoid. As I have said, I want to talk about the combat system from past expansions and how you thought it was better. I might agree with some points, I might challenge some, however, unless I have a basis to go off of, this discussion cannot happen. It almost seems like you are trying to avoid giving specifics for this exact reason.

Shall we take the new smn? "honey, press the 2 buttons as you want. Ah, be careful babe, you have 6 seconds of casting every minute, it's dangerous!"

I have already stated that SMN is a step too far, however, that cannot be your only point.

The old jobs require the player to manage more things or if we want to be picky they require to manage things.

Examples? BLM probably has more to manage now than it did in HW, despite the Enochian changes, NIN has more to manage now, BRD has more to manage now. Whilst SMN is an extreme example, I would not say it is the case for all jobs.

And you can very well tell me:...

I never claimed it was all QoL, just said it could be seen that way dependant on who you talk to.

but QoL doesn't take away things to do but improve what you are doing.

Not always, if something is not working right, or it feels bad to use, changing it or replacing it with something else that does work is indeed a QoL fix.

it doesn't mean taking away the manage of dots, casts, stacks and placement of the pet.

Noone claimed these were Qol changes to SMN.

QoL doesn't mean taking skills off me because they have to be assigned to others.

You have to trim the fat somewhere if you want new shiny buttons to press. There is only a limited space on someone's hot/crossbar after all.

QoL does not mean increasing the range of a skill by 200% because I don't know how to position myself.

If this is in reference to GNB and continuation, I can tell you right now it is a very welcome change.

QoL doesn't mean taking away a skill that is the heart of the class.

Depends why the action was taken away/changed.

QoL doesn't mean increasing the hitbox of boss by "area of ​​the whole arena".

Noone wanted this.

[QUOTE]QoL doesn't mean remove the task from tanks to place bosses well.[.QUOTE]

Alot of tanks would agree with this as well, myself included.

Accessibility != deprive of everything that can be optimized. Accessibility, and I repeat myself, is the way in which you make the job accessible, you accompany the player to learn it through various methodologies, not that of giving the baby food ready. It's an insult to the intelligence of the players first of all but makes the game monotonous and everything already learned and discovered.

Is it accessibility to change Enochian to a trait where it basically became useless as a button? How about Blood of the Dragon? Greased Lighting? These were things that you never had to manage to one degree or another. So what is the point in keeping them? If keeping them as they are limited design choices, but changing them opened up new avenues for creativity, should it not be changed? You wouldn't have everything you have on BLM as it is now if Enochian wasn't changed, you might not have had LotD if BotD was kept as it was, MNK would have gone another expansion of getting nothing just because of GL.

[Colt47]

The issue with casters is that it is supposed to be built around this idea of doing big damage at a distance while being immobile, so it is about understanding how to position oneself. The summoner is easier to play but that doesn't really address the problem with having an immobile caster in a game that wants people to move around. Also, when saying they are immobile it has nothing to do with their ability to 'mitigate' the issue through skills, it has to do with the fact they need to mitigate the casting bar bit in the first place.

The philosophy of the job class is thus "you have a cast bar but your entire life is to make sure you do not use a cast bar when it matters". That is even more boss dependent than a melee class or even tank job. All the while the casters are still bound by the same old combo systems that other jobs with fewer drawbacks have.

Yeah someone can get good with a caster and make it work, but someone can also get good with a melee or ranged dps and get similar results without all the baggage. Summoner maybe vapidly simplified, but the reason people have it as the most played caster is that it is the least chained up of the casters. BLM is a close second in the three and RDM has fallen from grace a ton. Somehow the caster that has the bouncy melee combo is the least maneuverable and most pain in the rear job to play now.

[Lotte_Weiss]

Also yes BLM is engaging but not in the same way you are playing around the fight because you have broken legs. But you aren't playing around your resources, dots, charges, ect.

I would say BLM rotation is all about adjusting and planning ahead based on your resources, dots, charges, as well as upcoming mechanics and movement.