What are things you ENJOY about Healers right now?

[Renathras]

Excuse you,

Right, no antagonism at all. <_<

In case no one explains why people are responding to you like you're troll, I'll reply.

Dude, I've been posting here for over a year. People treated me as a troll from the moment I suggested that even one Healer remain as it is (PvE kits) and it hasn't changed since. New evolutions or reasons to add to the bucket don't change the fact that the bucket was wrong to begin with, and if you guys think I'm a troll, you don't know what a troll is.

However, the way you phrased your response denies shield healers as "actual healers" in your definition, but as "supports".

In PvE?

This post - that I didn't reply to and think I missed?

Just confirming. Does that mean that because a shield healer's primary goal is not to heal flat hp, but apply support utility such as shields / mitigation to ensure the party lives through damage through preventative means, you don't think healers like SCH and SGE are considered healers?

How can you take a non-replied to post as a statement? o.O

You, entirely literally in this case, have to invent words and put them into my mouth to present your current position that I said Barrier Healers in PvE are not Healers. Can you show me where in this statement - since it seems to be the basis of your claim - that I said "Barrier Healers are not Healers"?

What makes a Healer is that they are and focus on HEALING. This should be a tautology as it's in the name. This is distinct from a Support which is focused across domains of damage dealing, buffing, debuffing, healing, and other utility (like run speed) and act in a Supporting role, which can include healing people but also swinging over to DPS down an enemy or buffing/debuffing/utility to ensure their team can do so. If that's the kind of gameplay you like, then Support roles/Jobs/classes are right up your alley.

I even made sure to add to it - the part you left out which clarifies the position:

If the focus is on dealing damage, then it's not a Healer. It might not be outright a Damage Dealer/DPS if the focus is on support buffing, debuffing, crowd control, etc...but it isn't a Healer at that point, it's a Support.

Why DID you leave this part out, btw?

So notice what I listed, support buffing (I didn't say shielding or mitigation; if you notice, I tend to list those as their own category of thing which is under the domain of both Healers and/or Tanks in a lot of games, though in this game even DPS have some), debuffing, crowd contrrol, etc. I didn't mention shields, shield healing, or barrier healers in any capacity, yet you're presuming I did because you did, and when I didn't answer (because I didn't see the post), drawing conclusions about me saying things that I...didn't actually say; indeed, in this case, I literally said nothing and you interpreted nothing as "Barrier Healers in PvE aren't Healers" somehow. Can you see how that might be a mistake on your part, by chance?

Hell, I even used YOUR terms of offensive and defensive support.

Your response is not only a classification challenge to at least 3 PvP healers, but an affront to the existing classification of PvE shield healers,

HOW??

I literally didn't make a statement at all on the matter and it's somehow a statement? How is a person not saying something equivalent in your mind to them making an ironclad declarative statement?

For the record, if I were to respond to that post, I would say the following:

"All Healers in PvE right now are focused by kit and function on healing. With few exceptions, most mitigation abilities in the game have a healing component, either directly (Adloquium, Succor, Sacred Soil, Seraphic Veil, Consolation, Collective Unconscious, Celestial Intersection, Neutral Sect, Exaltation, Eukrasian Diagnosis, Eukrasian Prognosis, Kerachole, Taurochole, and Holos) or indirectly by increasing healing (Temperance, Fey Illumination, Protraction), of the top of my head. The only ones that don't do this are WHM's Divine Benison and Aquaveil (but WHM isn't a Barrier Healer, so it's a moot point), Expedient, Haima, and Panhaima (and these last two are debatable since they do provide healing at the end if there are any shield stacks left over at the end of the duration). Setting that aside, SCH and SGE both have massive amounts of raw healing throughput to turn empty HP bars into full HP bars, and they are used either as the components that are part of their mitigation buttons (Sacred Soil/Kerachole's HoT, Holos' direct AOE heal) or as part of their expansive oGCD healing suit. Indeed, one of the classic and consistent complaints here is that Healer Jobs in FFXIV are not focused on DPS and that DPS abilities seem to be filler afterthought for the purposes of soloing more than anything, with even SGE having a very unsatisfying DPS kit."

(Seriously, the common refrain here is that the Devs designed the Healer kits for damage that the game doesn't output to justify them, and with DPS as such an afterthought that it's dreadfully boring to many of the posters here because of how unfocused and "filler" it is.)

Meaning by the above definition you quoted me having said, SCH and SGE in PvE are "focused on healing". SCH has exactly one debuff used on CD, so it's not a focus of the Job and has no interactivity with the rest of the kit, AST has offensive support buffs but is very strongly a Healer, and probably the most powerful one in the game with tools that massively fill empty HP bars including party-Benediction Macrocosmos, and SGE is healing with literally every action they take, even their damage spells.

So not only did I not say what you claim and are using as justification for the attacks, what I did say can't be used to support your conclusion that you imagined me saying.

I didn't "pretty much provoke everyone who plays" SCH and SGE. For one thing, I main SCH! The people "provoked" where the people who are perpetually provoked at me for breathing at this point.

I asked for confirmation to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is not what you meant so you can clarify the misunderstanding,

And then assumed that, instead of a short post at the bottom of a page in an active thread being missed, I confirmed your belief that isn't even consistent with the thing I had just said that you've twisted?

How is "I asked you to clarify, and then assumed the worst" a good faith giving of benefit of doubt, exactly?

you provoked others by continuously bringing up the point of why your post wasn't acceptable in a thread about things healers enjoyed

I wasn't "provoking" anyone. I was stating my opinion in a thread about opinions, and to explain what I DID like about AST in PvP. My GOD...

and doubled down on the idea that those healers are "supports" rather than healers.

In PvE or PvP?

Not PvE, since we weren't TALKING ABOUT PvE.

In PvP, I presented AST as an example of the one that felt like a Healer to me and why I felt that.

Your post seems to be saying "Ren, you are not allowed to have an opinion, or if you do, you are not allowed to state it because someone might be provoked by it."

I'm "provoked" by most of the things you guys say, but clearly that doesn't prevent you from saying it nor is there a collective soul searching and chastising of each other for saying those things. I've even presented people being passive aggressive sarcastic in this thread and someone calling me a troll (how is that not "provoking", exactly?), and instead of chastising people doing that, you defend and justify ACTUAL and direct provocation, on the grounds of imagined slight justifying ACTUAL slight. In what way does that make sense in your mind?

Having to invent words to put into someone's mouth, to then use to justify ongoing assaults on this person, that predated said words that they did not even say, and would be going on regardless of said words being said (which weren't even said) is just so far beyond the pale at this point, I'm honestly aghast. I thought this subforum was bad, but I think this may actually be a new...

This is not any indication of good faith in...

Oh my god.

I just can't even with this post anymore.
I'm sorry.

[ASkellington]

[QUOTE=Renathras;6250610]Right, no antagonism at all. <_</QUOTE]

Pot, kettle:

So all the people posting in here saying either "nothing at all" or giving really snarky, sarcastic replies weren't doing that until we started talking about "real healers"? (btw, that was Roe, not me). Stuff like:

"Can I get back to you on this? "
"Does the insta-queue for any content count? No? Well... uh..."
"I also like the memories I have of playing SCH and AST. "
"The themes and that's it. "
"SE took everything away that I LIKE about healers."

My post which you so rudely lumped for no reason simply because you don't like me was open for discussion (the second one). Which you could have gone on to then give examples of HOW they could have been brought back into the game or even argue that they're already there.

No. You just want to use it as 1. an attack on yourself when I specifically mentioned saying that it's SE's problem not yours, and 2. not even address it yet want to have a discussion.

The first two actually made me laugh. We're not allowed to have humor?

I can't speak for Ty's but mine wasn't written with snark. Especially the first one.

All of this to say, yes I don't like healers how they are outside of flashy effects right now, yet that's not the answer that you want when the threat is LITERALLY titled "what are things you enjoy about healers right now". Ok.

[AnotherPerson]

Why DID you leave this part out, btw?

So notice what I listed, support buffing (I didn't say shielding or mitigation; if you notice, I tend to list those as their own category of thing which is under the domain of both Healers and/or Tanks in a lot of games, though in this game even DPS have some), debuffing, crowd contrrol, etc. I didn't mention shields, shield healing, or barrier healers in any capacity, yet you're presuming I did because you did, and when I didn't answer (because I didn't see the post), drawing conclusions about me saying things that I...didn't actually say; indeed, in this case, I literally said nothing and you interpreted nothing as "Barrier Healers in PvE aren't Healers" somehow. Can you see how that might be a mistake on your part, by chance?

I just can't even with this post anymore.
I'm sorry.

The support skills you and I listed all work under damage prevention. I call PvP healers offensive and defensive supports, but I still basically place them under the "healer" label since that's the job's goal in utilizing them.

The concept that barrier healers use "preventing damage" as its representative form of managing damage is basically in both PvE and in PvP. It's just very pronounced in PvP for SCH and SGE because that's the only thing in their toolkit, but also shows up in lower amounts for WHM. However, you took offense to all the 3 healers that use said forms of prevention in different ways when talking about their healing throughput (the three being WHM, SCH, and SGE). WHM is more balanced in mitigation due to having Protect on Seraph Strike, Aquaveil as both a cleanse and shield, Miracle of Nature to disable any lethal engages, and LB's Afflatus Purgation that also acts as a disable on multiple targets. These aspects are all aligned to 'preventing damage', which is what a barrier healer excels at. This is the first post I explained to you in how their healing throughputs work. The problem is that after I explained that, you started segregating those PvP healers and called them as "supporters" as opposed to healers because they don't heal HP rather than not having good healing throughputs, touting how AST is the real healer afterwards.

The problem with stating stuff like "Support which is focused across domains of damage dealing, buffing, debuffing, healing, and other utility (like run speed)" ... is that has been always the case for healers even before ShB dropped. These aspects are what makes a healer in the damage prevention side (aka barrier healer aspects). In PvE, Holy still exists as a way to prevent damage, and that is a huge way PvE WHMs mitigate damage in dungeon mobs. All shield healers apply a support buff to shield, all shield healers apply effects to mitigate damage. SCH had stuff like eye for an eye and shadowflare (applies slow) in the past. These are all PvE abilities. That would mean you could have considered SCH as a support from the very beginning as opposed to a healer. Yes, barrier healers have lots of ways to restore HP... but SE separated the distinction specifically because barrier healers are also meant to prevent damage as a means to keep the party alive, and when this is the only thing present in the toolkit, this very idea goes against what you consider PvP healers as 'healers' rather than support. Even to the point where even if WHM has Cure II and Cure III in its current toolkit, because Seraph Strike exists and grants Protect to allies, you called it 'not a real healer' but as an offensive 'supporter'.

The main reason why this conclusion popped up for me (and probably others) is also because you bring up RDM as a healer with AST in PvP. RDM has a heal through verholy and LB, but it's even worse in dependability because you have to charge up 3 melee combo hits before activating it under white shift. The LB has an even worse hitbox range due to its cross shape if you're relying that to heal allies, so even if it's an AoE, the target range is way more difficult to utilize correctly, making it less reliable as a source of healing. Even PvP SGE would be considered a better healer than RDM as Pneuma doesn't have any of that multiple GCD prep delay other than the cooldown. That's why I'm so confused why you don't even consider PvP SGE as a healer or WHM as a healer, but RDM as one when the conditions to activating RDM's heal is more complex.
... So correct me if I'm wrong, even if you didn't explicitly say it, everything you said said implies shield healers to only be healers because they heal HP. So that means you don't look as shields or mitigation as part of what makes a healer 'a healer'. At least not in PvP's case. After process of elimination, you really left no other choices for me to consider when you consider PvP RDM a healer more than PvP WHM due to their kit differences. I can't really see any other alternatives either. Even if you disliked Seraph Strike... it's an instant cast ability. It really does not interfere with getting Cure III out in the next GCD. You could equally do Cure II -> Seraph Strike -> Cure III for big burst healing. Even when compared to PvP RDM's verholy, PvP WHM's Cure III is way easier to put forth. I want to doubt thinking this is not what you meant when you meant the 3 PvP healers were not healers, but ... what is left for me to doubt?

SCH does not actually use the debuff on cd, at least on Frontlines. It's very much recommended to use it on cd, but that's actually the incorrect usage of Biolysis. Biolysis does not have killing power. It has pressuring power and damage reduction (aka mitigation and telling your opponents to back off). It's best to use it in large groups and in start of battles, but there are also caveats to using it as best as possible. The key word is: Pressuring power. You don't have hard CC on SCH, but you have pressure that can become soft CC towards enemies to back off. Everything in Scholar's toolkit is made for the purpose of "damage prevention". Even the DoT. It might not seem much, but the DoT can be very devastating in a long drawn out battle, which is what forces people to retreat or die in the process. Sometimes, it's worthwhile to delay the DoT so you can use Expedience to supercharge the pressuring effect and force people to back off. Biolysis isn't designed to kill, but also meant to be used defensively. However, if it gets a kill because people overstayed, then it means they didn't respect the "pressuring power" that SCH emitted, which usually happens more of a consequence rather than the original intent due to the damage penalty on SCH as a healer role in Frontlines.

As for SCH being the job with only one debuff without synergy, it's actually one debuff with 3 different skills to interact with it. SCH can activate expedience or Summon Seraph to activate Biolysis and then spread with Deployment Tactics. Almost always, you want to spread it, but there are situations where delaying Deployment Tactics slightly is better when the enemy retreats, because then you can hit a group of people sitting in the back (thereby forcing an entire alliance to do less damage to all 24 alliance members rather than just 8). Likewise, Expedience and Summon Seraph both affect Adloquium. Adloquium can then be spread by Deployment Tactics. Adloquium also enhances your own pressuring power, along with Expedience or Summon Seraph. It's ultimately up to the SCH to decide whether they want to help pressure the enemy away to disengage safely, shield allies and strengthen themselves and their team, or go all in on a defensive/offensive stance with their LB. Everything on SCH's toolkit aims at giving a lot of flexibility in how much the SCH plans on handling damage for your party, which is why I consider it a shield healer. When you called it "not a healer", I'm just boggled. Beyond boggled. Isn't that the primary goal of a shield healer? To mitigate and prevent damage? How can it not be a healer?

I'm getting too tired to read long paragraphs and formulating a detailed response. I think the main reason why this even blown up is because you only brought up 3 of those healers suddenly as "Not a Real healer" so adamantly in reply to me explaining healer throughputs of all healers is good in a thread specifically talking about what people enjoy about the healers. Take that what you will. At this point, I'm too tired to care and would be much more happier if everything is just a happy misunderstanding on my part and I'm reading into things too deeply tbh. I'm sorry if I caused any undue distress as a result.

[ty_taurus]

So all the people posting in here saying either "nothing at all" or giving really snarky, sarcastic replies weren't doing that until we started talking about "real healers"? (btw, that was Roe, not me). Stuff like:

"Can I get back to you on this? "
"Does the insta-queue for any content count? No? Well... uh..."
"I also like the memories I have of playing SCH and AST. "
"The themes and that's it. "
"SE took everything away that I LIKE about healers."

Why are you dragging me into this? Aren't you the person who despises when others make inferences about how you feel based on what you post? I gave you an honest answer. Am I not allowed to engage with your topic without being falsely accused of doing so spitefully?

[fulminating]

Not to put a too fine point on it, but I did get back to you. Was expressing interest in your topic a bad thing?

[GoatOfWar]

The one thing i enjoy most about healers is that i stopped playing them.

[ElysiumDragon]

Likes/Dislikes of each healer, right? Sounds easy enough ^^

White Mage:

Likes- Decent healing, easy to play, Misery feels satisfying to pull off.
Dislikes- Awful MP economy, gameplay significantly reduces in quality if you die at any point.

Astrologian:

Likes- Particle effects are pretty, job is quick and complex, good job fantasy, good MP economy
Dislikes: Heals take an age to do anything, high skill floor means a bad AST is an outright burden, card system on controller needs a rework

Scholar:

Likes- Expedient is a really useful skill, easy enough to play, good job quest storyline, Deployed Critlo is satisfying to pull off.
Dislikes- Heals reliant on fairy placement results in occasional jank, isn't particularly fun at low levels as fairy does all the healing, losing the fairy if you die feels bad.

Sage:

Likes- Weapons usually have interesting designs, sound effects on skills are amazing, Icarus is a super useful skill for high-end content.
Dislikes- Eukrasia is underutilised, Addersting feels tacked-on, job skills having unusual names makes them difficult to memorise.

[Hazama999]

Now?

Well.... The aesthetics, I guess?

Sage has pretty effects :]

[Rithy255]

1. fast queue times
2. If I want to play the most "chill" role in the game.

[NobleWinter]

The extra gil for being adventure in need is nice. I'm perpetually broke in this game. I like the power healing gives me to reverse an encounter with Limit Break 3 too. Countering a knock back that would kill someone with Rescue is also one of my favorite moments. I also like healing because I'm not dependent on someone else to keep me alive. The only thing worse than being bored as a healer is being frustrated as a DPS or tank that is on the receiving end of inept healing.