Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

The solution to this is to increase boss damage.

Boss autos should really be hitting as hard as most tankbusters hit. Their tankbusters should bring a properly geared tank below 25%. Auto attacks should come out faster too.

Make a fight so a tank can't solo it, and then you won't have tanks wasting everyone's time.

The issue with this is what do you define as 'properly geared'?

Take Lapis Manalis as an example - it's entry ilvl is 590. The current ilvl cap is 630. If you're suggesting to balance tankbusters around an ilvl 40 steps above the entry requirement range as 'properly geared', then you're out of your mind and would be rightfully laughed out of any serious game design meeting. As long as dungeons are MSQ bound, they'll always have to be tuned around the lowest min ilvl for the instance to allow a full set of potential min ilvl players of generally low skill that get queued together to sail through the instance. And as a result of being tuned to the lowest ilvl, high ilvl tanks will always be able to brush off tank damage, especially once you factor in disparity in actual skill levels.

That's even ignoring the reality that every tank sans DRK has solo'd P1 normal back when the ilvl was 600 - a fight that contains stack markers that have to be solo soaked instead of split, decent damage tankbusters, and chains of decent damage autos that required good CD & healing management in order to overcome. You'd need to crank damage level up to savage scale in order to stop a WAR who understands even the basics of CD management from soloing a boss.

And if you think they'd ever put savage level damage in an MSQ bound dungeon, then I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell ya!

The solution to preventing tanks from soloing bosses is to just pull back on the sheer healing vomit the tanks can put out, no 5000iq 'I think this idea is great but will just make DF experience worse in reality' ideas needed. Just prevent tanks from being both a tank & healer roles baked into one.

[SaltyDaddy]

The solution to this is to increase boss damage.

Boss autos should really be hitting as hard as most tankbusters hit. Their tankbusters should bring a properly geared tank below 25%. Auto attacks should come out faster too.

Make a fight so a tank can't solo it, and then you won't have tanks wasting everyone's time.

Lets gooo. Healers asked for more healing. Let them suffer! Everybody cried about P7S bleed week one, but this feels special. Seriously, Im happy you are not content designer. What a stupid idea.

If the tank can wrap it up an a couple of minutes, I have no issue, but that's not what I'm talking about in even the slightest. Nor am I talking about unsynced scenarios. I'm talking about bosses having enough HP to where it will take the tank a significant amount of time to solo the boss, which can happen in NM trials and raids since the boss does not have an enrage, or the tank will eventually get taken out anyway by a boss's hard enrage in duties EX and up. This could apply to dungeon bosses as well if the boss takes too long to solo. The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear. You also have the option to leave if the group lacks the skill the complete the duty.

If party wipes at more % than they can solo without taking too long to see enrage and they still going just because, they are just dicks. I dont think its reportable, but if everyone ask them nicelly and they want to waste time, put them on black list and just leave. I still think your idea would, in the long run, cause more harm than good. When it happens on normal content, hey, at least you can go prepare yourself a nice cup of coffee.

People will always argue that the game is balanced around savages/ultimate. Content that barely anyone even does, lol.

The fact is that even if they scaled tanks down, healing and dps is still grossly overkill for all normal content. This tells me that the problem isn't the classes, it's the boss/trash design.

And what you want to balance around? Normal raids lol? Also "content nobody does" - you know that more people clear savage, than the blue carnivale, or another type of casual content right?

[Jeeqbit]

The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

It's not over until it's over. If one person lives, it's fair they should be able to keep trying. An enrage or super TB for there only being 1 person would affect unsyncing in the future as well.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear.

The game is designed around carrying people. It was the developers' intention from ARR. They wanted to match veteran and geared up players into duties with newer or more casual players, so that they carry them and show off all their skills and gear. The matching of different skill levels was always how it was meant to be.

Dungeons only need 1 competent player to carry the rest and this is what works. If required MSQ content was too hard, some people just wouldn't progress and would quit.

The solution to preventing tanks from soloing bosses is to just pull back on the sheer healing vomit the tanks can put out, no 5000iq 'I think this idea is great but will just make DF experience worse in reality' ideas needed. Just prevent tanks from being both a tank & healer roles baked into one.

This is exactly why we can solo things in the first place. There used to be bosses that just hit too hard, especially in 8-person content, combined with only 2 uses of Clemency at a time. Now we have so many self-heals that we can actually live for ages without even sweating. That isn't to say that we couldn't solo dungeon bosses before, but it wasn't always as easy as it can be now with our abundance of healing and mitigation.

[Troxbark]

snip

I did lapis whatever whenever day 1 ilvl590, I watched YouTube while running it as healer. It's baby tuned content.

[Troxbark]

Lets gooo. Healers asked for more healing. Let them suffer! Everybody cried about P7S bleed week one, but this feels special. Seriously, Im happy you are not content designer. What a stupid idea.

Cried because healers wouldn't heal and dps wouldn't use mits. After the 2nd or 3rd week it was a non-issue when people realized how to actually utilize everything their job has.

And what you want to balance around? Normal raids lol? Also "content nobody does" - you know that more people clear savage, than the blue carnivale, or another type of casual content right?

Keep balancing around savage, buff casual content to at least require people to pay attention.

Blue carnivale??? Old and outdated content that no one gives a shit about lmao. If you compare savage to equivalent relevant casual content then no, more people don't do savage. The fact you had to cherry pick content that is basically hidden or outdated shows how disingenuous you're trying to be.

[TomsYoungerBro]

The issue with this is what do you define as 'properly geared'?

Take Lapis Manalis as an example - it's entry ilvl is 590. The current ilvl cap is 630.

This is why they should just ilvl sync content so they dont have to account for side a wide gear gap.

[TaleraRistain]

If the tank can wrap it up an a couple of minutes, I have no issue, but that's not what I'm talking about in even the slightest. Nor am I talking about unsynced scenarios. I'm talking about bosses having enough HP to where it will take the tank a significant amount of time to solo the boss, which can happen in NM trials and raids since the boss does not have an enrage, or the tank will eventually get taken out anyway by a boss's hard enrage in duties EX and up. This could apply to dungeon bosses as well if the boss takes too long to solo. The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear. You also have the option to leave if the group lacks the skill the complete the duty.

I can see the point of not wanting a tank with ego to decide for the party but I think on the flip side it can hurt people just trying to get through the content. I remember a particular E5N run back near launch where I was on DNC and we had a lot of new folks. I was one of the few left alive each time we wiped. We tried to help explain. It just was something wasn't clicking so most were really struggling. It happened about 3 times. On the fourth try, the two tanks and I took him down from 40% ourselves. It took a bit, but the party was cheering us on and having a good time with it. I know you had mainly mentioned EX but some on the thread had also mentioned normal content. SE has added enrages here and there even to normal content and they're generally not a bottleneck so I think they just need to be careful how tight they make things so they're not punishing players really trying just for the random egotistical tank.

[Gemina]

I still think your idea would, in the long run, cause more harm than good. When it happens on normal content, hey, at least you can go prepare yourself a nice cup of coffee.

How? You're not backing up your claim with a valid argument. If you think that this would be bad over the long run, then explain why you think that is. Giving players a chance to grab some coffee while a tank solos the boss hardly makes a valid case why this is a good thing. If anything, it exacerbates the problem at hand.

It's not over until it's over. If one person lives, it's fair they should be able to keep trying. An enrage or super TB for there only being 1 person would affect unsyncing in the future as well.

The thread topic is merely a suggestion. It doesn't have to be the way this issue is circumvented by the dev team. What the tread topic is pointing out, and what some of the posters herein have acknowledged, is encounter design. If a DPS or healer are the ones left standing, it doesn't matter if they execute the mechanics flawlessly; the boss will quickly finish them off through auto attacks alone. Do you really think it's fair that tanks have the privilege to duke it out with the boss solo if they happen to be the ones left standing? Can you say that with a straight face? You are a tank main with a seemingly level head on your shoulders, you should be one of the first people in this thread who acknowledges this issue.

The game is designed around carrying people. It was the developers' intention from ARR. They wanted to match veteran and geared up players into duties with newer or more casual players, so that they carry them and show off all their skills and gear. The matching of different skill levels was always how it was meant to be.

This argument works for casual content, or anything below EX. This content isn't designed for players to be carried, it is just designed so it can be cleared by players of varied skill levels because it isn't the intention of the dev team to wall players who are just trying to progress through the MSQ and NM raids. Even then, I still think the content shouldn't be designed in such a way that a tank can just toss the whole team on his back, and get them past the finish line. Don't the Japanese operate under the mindset of 'teamwork', and that one player shouldn't have a higher value than anyone else? Or is this just a farce? A western fantasy of the Japanese culture?

As I said before, I can let this crap go to a certain extent for NM duties. However, EX and above is absolutely unacceptable that tanks can survive these encounters at an extended measure until they actually win or the boss enrages. Soloing the remainder of single digit% HP is one thing, being able to survive an entire series of mechanics is more than beyond busted.

It's also not so much encounter design than it is just having some friggin consistency. Tanks don't always have this kind of sustainability in all duties. An encounter that requires a tank swap can quickly bring a battle to an end if there is only one tank left, yet not all encounters have them, or some encounters will have a boss use an unavoidable vuln stack on the tank, and then go into a set of mechanics that will allow that timer to expire before it brings its attention back onto them (e.g. Ruby Weapon).

You can check my posting history. I don't start threads a whole lot complaining about issues I have with the game. I wouldn't have brought up this topic if I did not feel it was a serious flaw within the game. The answer doesn't have to be a mini enrage or super TB, but I feel something has to be done about this.

[Gemina]

I can see the point of not wanting a tank with ego to decide for the party but I think on the flip side it can hurt people just trying to get through the content. I remember a particular P5N run back near launch where I was on DNC and we had a lot of new folks. I was one of the few left alive each time we wiped. We tried to help explain. It just was something wasn't clicking so most were really struggling. It happened about 3 times. On the fourth try, the two tanks and I took him down from 40% ourselves. It took a bit, but the party was cheering us on and having a good time with it. I know you had mainly mentioned EX but some on the thread had also mentioned normal content. SE has added enrages here and there even to normal content and they're generally not a bottleneck so I think they just need to be careful how tight they make things so they're not punishing players really trying just for the random egotistical tank.

Yeah, I think one of the most compelling arguments thus far has been this is actually a rare occurrence, and most tanks will just kill themselves in such situations, but I think this is mostly because they know it will likely be faster to reset than to solo the boss themselves. I can understand the mindset of just wanting to get out of there if the group keeps failing. However, this brings back up what I pointed out earlier about the strong dislike voiced by the community for carries, and players who refuse to get better.

I know for me, if I am having trouble with a particular duty or mechanic, I can't live down getting the clear anyway. It bothers me like nothing else in this game. So even with a green checkmark I will throw my butt back into that duty until I learn it. A redemption run, if you will. I know I can't expect all players to be like this, or even force this on them especially in NM duties. I've been in this situation as a tank several times, and it causes me a serious dilemma on whether it would be better for me to reset, or finish the boss off myself. One of the reasons for my suggestion is to also not thrust any other players into having to make that decision. It sucks!

[Saraide]

P7s tankbusters are possibly the worst example of pointing at how much more damage bosses supposedly do. You could solo the "shared" tankbuster week 1 which halves the dot incoming total dot damage. It let me tell my cotank to "let me solo her" but that's about everything.