The atrocity that was the "In from the Cold" quest ending - *STORY RANT*

[Eisi]

So basically:

"WHAT IS THIS? A GAME?! YOU EXPECT TO BE HAPPY!?? UNLESS YOU'RE EDGY AND MISERABLE AND EVERYONE IS DYING - ESPECIALLY THAT ONE CHARACTER EVERYONE LOVES - IT SUCKS AND I HATE IT AND YOU SHOULD HATE IT TOO!!!!!!"

That's what I'm getting out of this post.

To lose the one character everybody loves is a tautology, because that goes for every main character. It's part of the reason why it would hit so hard, it's tragic on a more personal level and a loss that can not be justified. But I do also believe that there is more that would come from a death like this than mere tragedy. It would have profound impact on the trajectory of the other characters as well.

It was a story about war, despair, the end in multiple ways and that this scene in particular involved machiavellian hedonistic psychopaths and nihilists. A story about the end of all things, a story about the death of countless worlds. They didn't need to tell that tale, but you must hate Endwalker for its subject matter alone. You probably hated Quintus and Thavnair part II and the Dead Ends.

Because this is what I want from a story that wants to show me hope in spite of all this - I want it to show me the lowest point, to show me that yes, even there it is worth it to go on. That is true hope. And on an abstract level with the dead worlds and lost civilizations this is where the story went. Even with individual destinies of side characters it showed us. But on a personal level, it refused.

If you don't want character deaths, don't tell a story about the end and loss and despair, about a war-torn world and well, about death.

I absolutely agree the death fakes in Ultima were stupid

Not a position that I hold by the way. I just think that the WoL should have also "sacrificed" themselves at the end and lived through a dream sequence, a mystic tale about the end and their role in this story.

I HATE movies where they kill everyone off just to get cheep hearstring tugs

And so do I. I like deaths though, there is no substitute for it. It happens irl too and I like stories that dare go there and amidst deepest despair show you light everlasting. Some connection that even death might not sever.

When I think of being heroic, I DON'T think of being held down powerless while my allies are slaughtered.

The purpose of the bodyswap was to take away your powers so that you became a regular footsoldier. You were pretty heroic in the quest nontheless, but someone at that level simply can't touch an Ascian or a Zenos. That doesn't mean they are not a hero.

[Renathras]

...

Except on the last point:

Agree to disagree.

.

Believe it or not, not EVERYONE dies in a war. Indeed, in some elite companies or groups, sometimes, NO ONE at all dies. People can also reach low points without literally everyone dying (or close to it) dying around them. Hope isn't "when things are dark and everyone has died, I press on", that's stoicism. And that's not even the only form of stoicism.

The story wasn't about the end and loss and despair. It was about how it WASN'T the end, how triumph prevented (most) loss, and about hope. It wasn't about a war-torn world and death, it as about building a future and life. The story was about the opposite of everything you seem to think it was about.

I don't care for deaths. There's enough death in reality, and there are LOTS of substitutes for death that make a compelling story. Indeed, death is arguably the cheapest and most pathetic way to try to score cheap heartstring points with people. It requires little effort other than killing someone, so much so, many things kill off a side character that no one even cares about but make all the characters in the story react as if we should (Avengers did this with Coulson's death, and while his character came into his own in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., when he died, everyone around me was like "Who is this character and why are we supposed to care about him?"). It's just such a cheap and lazy method of writing, I'm constantly shocked by people that think it's somehow the most masterful way to write drama.

Hell, someone being injured, especially if you don't know but suspect it may be permanent - Iggy being blinded in FFXV, for example - is much more of a gutpunch. Because the character is still there. You still see them, interact with them, etc, in their compromised state, and you know they were harmed (probably) by the bad guy but there's nothing you can do but press on despite that.

"no substitute for it"? ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is a substitute for it, and almost always BETTER than it, imo.

[TaleraRistain]

The burger scene happened before we even knew the Final Days wanting to be restarted was the actual plan.

If you mean us finding out Fandaniel wanted to restart the Final Days and die and take everyone with him, he told us that in pre-Endwalker when he brings Lunar Bahamut to the Royal Menagerie. I can't say I remembered it myself. My hubby is finally picking up pre-EW into EW MSQ with me and we just saw that cutscene.

[TaleraRistain]

I only remember one dining in the EW MSQ but that can be my memory mushing them together. The right before Ultima Thule... no before we got there. That's my point though. Can you imagine camping in front of the final boss of an expansion and be like "ah all the things we went through. Want some tea?" Imho makes more sense to do that after

Or maybe sharing some Cup Noodles?

[BRVV]

Or maybe sharing some Cup Noodles?

LOOK! LOOK! OTHER FINAL FANTASY BAD! *monkey-scream*

In all seriousness: does this mean FFXIV can just be a mesh of every bad thing that ever was put in an FF story? Actually that might be the plan with the current writing.

[SannaR]

If you mean us finding out Fandaniel wanted to restart the Final Days and die and take everyone with him, he told us that in pre-Endwalker when he brings Lunar Bahamut to the Royal Menagerie. I can't say I remembered it myself. My hubby is finally picking up pre-EW into EW MSQ with me and we just saw that cutscene.

Nah, I meant that his aim was to take out Zodiark. We didn't know what exactly the towers were meant for just that they were there and sending aether somewhere.

[Theodric]

I have a hunch that most people claiming to be 'against character death in a story' are specifically referring to the characters that they, themselves, prefer because it certainly doesn't seem like something that extends to the antagonists in which case they suddenly switch to 'there was no other way'.

I find stories with stakes to be compelling and a cast perpetually clad in plot armour is largely why I fell out of favour with the story as a whole. Interesting characters with doubts, flaws and hard decisions to make are slain but the ones who get handed every possible tool needed for victory are kept around and even brag about not having any scars afterwards. It's just very boring to me, especially when a healthy balance could be struck to appeal to a greater variety of personal tastes and preferences whilst also allowing room for the main cast to change and be replaced over time.

[deston07]

Zenos has never had the goal to kill the WoL,
From the very first solo fight with Zenos to the (6.0) fight.
(I doubt Zenos is actually dead)

Zenos has always pushed the WoL to become stronger,
This was no different.
Allowing us to relive what zenos went through,
fighting as a weak imperial soldier to reclaim our body just as he did.
Although, our soul was not entirely moved from our body.
Only the conscious part of our soul was moved into the imperial.

Scions where rightly on guard when (you) walk up,
Y'shtola is instantly wary of who ever it is but
not confident due to corrupt Aether in the area.

In a prolonged fight Zenos would probably beat the Scions.
The Scions are not so weak they would cave that quickly.
The End of Shadow Bringers and early parts of End Walker story
prove that they are much stronger than before.
(Maybe you forgot they literally fought full primals in teams of two?
Just before End Walker started)

The goal of End Walker was Hope, Not despair.

Ultima thule was a perfect example of that,
The MSQ was short and precise in Ultima thule,
Naturally giving the feeling that there is no chance the scions stay dead,
or at the very least things will work out the way they should.

We as the player knew it would be a good ending despite how sad the story was going.
Is that not the very definition of Hope?

End Walker is the end of a poem to the players of FFXIV,

Lastly this is a Teen rated game, FFXIV works very hard to keep it that way.
If you want a game of true dispare, FFXIV will never be it.

[Gralna]

I'd rather see character growth and development. Majority of playerbase found Alphinaud overconfident and pretentious in ARR, but by end of HW had warmed up to him. Still plenty that don't like him despite that growth, but it's there. I'd rather have similar arcs for characters, than to just have a rotating door of characters arriving and dying like in GoT or WoW. Character deaths can be meaningful when done right, overusing it though can be just as bad overuse of resurrection or fake outs.

By this point I've come to accept that core group of scions most likely have impervious plot armor, and at worst will disappear for a few story arcs in future expansions. Doesn't mean though that CB3 can't do meaningful character deaths, there's still the **SPOILERS** "welcome to Shadowbringers" moment, and the second trial of EW.

[TaleraRistain]

LOOK! LOOK! OTHER FINAL FANTASY BAD! *monkey-scream*

In all seriousness: does this mean FFXIV can just be a mesh of every bad thing that ever was put in an FF story? Actually that might be the plan with the current writing.

FFXV was hardly the first JRPG in existence to ever do that. Or the first game or book or movie. It's a common trope in any media that the main party often takes a moment of peace to reflect and appreciate each other and their journey before they go off to an uncertain ending in the final confrontation.