Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

[Absimiliard]

Genuinely curious. When did this happen? The only instance of this I recall is when Theodoric the Mad King, a notoriously unpopular and evil ruler, set fire to Rhalgr's Reach while persecuting his city-state's own religion. This helped spark a rebellion that ousted him before Garlemald came swooping in, colonized it, stripped it of it's natural resources, performed grievous war crimes, and conducted horrific human experimentation.

The Autumn War. This was nearly a century before Theodric's time. The things they did in their bid to claim the Black Shroud are explicitly stated to have been incredibly vile and inhumane. They would just roll up and butcher whole settlements, women and children included. The Autumn War only lasted for a year, but the Gridanians are still scarred by it. It would in all probability have resulted in the Black Shroud being conquered if the other city-states hadn't formed the Eorzean Alliance to repel Ala Mhigo's forces.

Garlemald also firebombed Dalmasca while putting it under siege, killing or starving 70,000 people. I don't think any nation on the planet has committed worse atrocities than Garlemald..

Take a look at Eorzea's history. They've done things that make many of the game's villains seem tame by comparison. You know, like the War of the Magi. The modern city-states are themselves quite willing to indulge in truly despicable activities when it suits them, I might add. Oh, and let's not forget Allag's numerous atrocities. I'm not even going to attempt to list all the horrible stuff the Allagans did.

You might also take a look at what some other nations did to to the Garleans long before the Garlean Empire was formed. They were subjected to almost every violation imaginable by their neighbors; constant raids to steal food and supplies, extermination squads, abductions, enslavement, and worse. Their inability to manipulate aether made them easy prey.

[Dikatis]

The Autumn War. This was nearly a century before Theodric's time. The things they did in their bid to claim the Black Shroud are explicitly stated to have been incredibly vile and inhumane. They would just roll up and butcher whole settlements, women and children included. The Autumn War only lasted for a year, but the Gridanians are still scarred by it. It would in all probability have resulted in the Black Shroud being conquered if the other city-states hadn't formed the Eorzean Alliance to repel Ala Mhigo's forces.

Okay. I don't disbelieve you, I just can't find any evidence of Ala Mhigo butchering whole settlements in Encyclopedia Eorzea or Erik or any of the other sources I usually consult for Ala Mhigan lore. Do you have a source?

Take a look at Eorzea's history. They've done things that make many of the game's villains seem tame by comparison. You know, like the War of the Magi. In fact, some of Eorzea's shady activities are still going on. Oh, and let's not forget Allag's numerous atrocities. I'm not even going to attempt to list all the horrible stuff the Allagans did.

You might also take a look at what some other nations did to to the Garleans long before the Garlean Empire was formed. They were subjected to almost every violation imaginable by their neighbors; constant raids to steal food and supplies, extermination squads, abductions, enslavement, and worse. Their inability to manipulate aether made them easy prey.

Okay. But that still doesn't make the Garleans inherently more sympathetic when they've done literally everything that was done to them but on a scale magnitudes greater. And it'd be one thing if it was a war to retake lost lands. It's another thing entirely to conquer entirely distant lands for nothing more than vanity given that Garlemald's "peace" involved the ruthless exploitation of the conquered lands and performing human experimentation worse than death. It advocated for genocide, the destruction of all cultures aside from its own, raids on supplies, extermination squads, abductions, enslavement, and rape. Garlemald was also complicit in Project Meteor and the deployment of Black Rose, both of which caused calamities that wiped up untold thousands. Project Meteor was intended to flatten all of Eorzea and destroy all life and resources upon it.

For all the city-states' failings, the Garlean Empire is, objectively and unsconscionably worse on the scale of misery and death it caused. None of the allied city-states have squeaky clean consciences except for perhaps Radz-at-Han on account of its neutrality. I cannot fathom the idea that Ala Mhigo is somehow more culpable and less sympathetic than the Empire who attempted to destroy an entire continent and potentially risk nuclear winter. There's a reason why only 1 in 13 members of the Eorzean military were willing to participate in a humanitarian mission of peace to Garlemald, since almost everyone in Eorzea has been wronged by Garlemald when not every Eorzean has hurt a Garlean.

Also, the War of the Magi wasn't fought by the modern Eorzean city-states. Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym are all long gone. And it's bizarre to hold modern Eorzea culpable for Allag's actions when none of the current city-states would even be a thought on anyone's minds for thousands of years after Allag's fall. Plus, Garlemald is doing its damnedest to imitate Allag in all of the worst possible ways thanks to Emet-Selch.

[Absimiliard]

For all the city-states failings, the Garlean Empire is, objectively and unsconscionably worse on the scale of misery and death it caused. None of the allied city-states have squeaky clean consciences except for perhaps Radz-at-Han on account of its neutrality. I cannot fathom the idea that Ala Mhigo is somehow more culpable and less sympathetic than the Empire who attempted to destroy an entire continent and potentially risk nuclear winter.

Two thoughts:
1.) Sildih happened.
2.) The modern Garleans were also victims, but of a very different sort. Propaganda is a very effective tool, especially when your populace already has the mentality of a whipped dog from centuries of suffering. Additionally, most of the Garlean civilians were just normal people. They didn't go out and start conducting experiments or what have you, and most of them probably didn't understand the full measure of what was taking place. They were ultimately just frightened people being gaslit by their oppressive governing body.

And uh.. the Garlean Empire, for all its faults, never once committed genocide. They are not, to my knowledge, responsible for the extermination of a single race from the face of the planet. Nor did it make a habit of completely eradicating the cultures of countries it conquered. In fact, many of its conquered territories were treated quite equitably. This was not true of all, mind, but it was the norm. Project Meteor was officially terminated. It was Nael (or rather Eula) who kept the project alive in secret, just as it was she who ultimately liberated Bahamut from his prison. The Garlean forces in Eorzea were razed right alongside the Eorzean troops they were fighting.

[Dikatis]

Two thoughts:
1.) Sildih happened.
2.) The modern Garleans were also victims, but of a very different sort. Propaganda is a very effective tool, especially when your populace already has the mentality of a whipped dog from centuries of suffering. Additionally, most of the Garlean civilians were just normal people. They didn't go out and start conducting experiments or what have you, and most of them probably didn't understand the full measure of what was taking place. They were ultimately just frightened people being gaslit by their oppressive governing body.

There's a certain point where you stop being victims. Pointing and laughing as people who are supposed to be under your care (i.e. Fordola) get stoned to death by a mob is pretty indicative that Garlemald stopped being nothing but victims decades ago. You can't justify their actions solely based on the sins of the fathers, especially when the majority of people they've conquered had nothing to do with the past violations against the Garleans' ancestors.

The people of Eorzea are honestly completely justified in hating Garlemald. And yet, the Garleans are treated with incredible sympathy in Endwalker as victims of the civil war that leveled their homes and of the gaslighting and manipulation you mentioned. Even as the Garleans spat vulgarities at the Ilsabardian Contingent and led a suicidal charge at the Contingent's camp, the company still did everything in their power to end hostilities before they became lethal. The heroes even managed to subdue and save most of the IIIrd Legion from tempering despite the risk to themselves.

And uh.. the Garlean Empire, for all its faults, never once committed genocide. They are not, to my knowledge, responsible for the extermination of a single race from the face of the planet.

I'm gonna quote Cid on this one:

“The Empire’s Meteor project is far more than it seems. While the initiative itself is fairly new, its origins lie in ancient magicks that legends tell us were used to tear stars from the heavens and send them crashing down upon the land. However, the Empire’s interest centers not only on the arcane, but on a colossal machine created thousands of years ago by a people known as the Allagans. What is this colossal machine, you ask? Why, look up and you can see it for yourself. Dalamud - the perfect weapon with which to destroy the beast tribes. A pity that it will destroy all the rest of us, as well."

Dalamud is specifically being used as a tool of genocide specifically so Garlemald can wipe out all of Eorzea and the primals along with them. And in case you just wanted to call this Cid's opinion:

After enduring a decade-long stalemate on the Eorzean front, the aged Emperor, impatient to solidify his legacy before his death, had once again become willing to entertain the notion of a realm-wide ‘cleansing’ of the beastmen and their eikons. Thus the second phase of the Meteor Project was commenced.”

It was attempted genocide only halted by the actions of the brave people who took to the field in Carteneau that day.

Nor did it completely eradicate the cultures of countries it conquered. In fact, many of its conquered territories were treated quite equitably. This was not true of all, mind, but it was the norm.

The attempts to destroy the religious and cultural institutions in Ala Mhigo say otherwise, and this was under the "equitable" Gaius van Baelsar. Yes, there are some territories that fared better than others, but the fact that people weren't even allowed to properly lay their dead to rest means that nations like Ala Mhigo had ashkin infestations. Something as minor as burial rites should not be suppressed in a world where failure to do so leads to undead monsters.

[Absimiliard]

...

You seem to be conflating the Garlean people with the Garlean military/government. You're also rather handily forgetting that the vast majority of Garlean military personnel were in fact conscripts, and that a lot of the not so great things they got up to were being perpetrated by said conscripts.

To the subject of the EE: A few key details:
1.) Nael, who had as mentioned before been directly responsible for keeping the project alive in secret, in fact lied to the Emperor by claiming the weapon could now be controlled.
2.) Note the aforementioned cleansing mentions only beast tribes and eikons. The beastmen, barring a select few (who the Garleans had no knowledge of anyway), were believed to be tempered to the last. This particular point comes up in-game on a multitude of occasions. Solus and Nael aside, all participants at this time believed it could indeed be controlled, which means we can readily infer the general intent was not to obliterate the entirety of Eorzea.
3.) Only Emet-Selch, who we now know was Emperor Solus, and Nael knew what was really inside Dalamud. Everyone else was completely in the dark.
4.) Obviously, Emet-Selch planned all along for Bahamut to be unleashed at the appropriate time. It was always going to happen, and not for the betterment of Garlemald. It was all for the Rejoining. They lost a lot of troops that day.

You may also note that, at that time, the beast tribes were for the most part not regarded as intelligent even by the Eorzeans. They were seen as hostile servants of primals at worst and dumb animals at best. It should go without saying the Garlean ruling body would hold a similar view of them, as they had no reason not to.

The Twelve were regarded as nothing more than eikons by the Garlean Empire. Much of the Ala Mhigan's culture revolved around their worship of Rhalgr, including their rather violent past. Despite this, they were still allowed to retain a fair bit of their culture. Other regions they'd conquered seemed to have remained relatively unscathed from a cultural perspective, though it's fairly likely these areas placed far less emphasis on eikons.

Anywho, to tl;dr it: I strongly disagree that the Garlean people are being handled with due sympathy in Endwalker. The Eorzean Alliance is going about "helping" them in a way that comes off as extremely predatory and ill-intentioned. I further disagree that the Ala Mhigans are in any way sympathetic, given the atrocities they have knowingly and willingly engaged in.

Now, with all this being said, we've gotten waaaayyy off the original topic. None of this has anything to do with Endwalker being controversial, but the fact this thread has garnered a fair amount of attention does kind of lend credence to the idea it was.

[Dikatis]

You seem to be conflating the Garlean people with the Garlean military/government. You're also rather handily forgetting that the vast majority of Garlean military personnel were in fact conscripts, and that a lot of the ones stoning people and laughing were those selfsame conscripts.

...I don't think a conscript would have a Garlean helmet with a third-eye slot and wield a gunblade. "Just following orders" and "indoctrination" stops being a excuse when you willfully disregard acts of violence on the citizens you're supposed to protect, especially under the egalitarian Gaius van Baelsar.

To the subject of the EE: A few key details:
1.) Nael, who had as mentioned before been directly responsible for keeping the project alive in secret, in fact lied to the Emperor by claiming the weapon could now be controlled.

And yet no Garlean but Gaius and Varis have ever expressed any misgivings about it?

2.) Note the aforementioned cleansing mentions only beast tribes and eikons. The beast tribes, barring a select few (who the Garleans had no knowledge of anyway), were believed to be tempered to the last. This particular point comes up in-game on a multitude of occasions. Solus and Nael aside, all participants at this time believed it could indeed be controlled.

This is objectively untrue as Garlean forces employ the Kojin of the Red as mercenaries to hold control Yanxia and the Ruby Sea. Dalamud is, by all counts, deployed as a weapon of genocide against all the peoples of Eorzea.

3.) Only Emet-Selch, who we now know was Emperor Solus, and Nael knew what was really inside Dalamud. Everyone else was completely in the dark.
4.) Obviously, Emet-Selch planned all along for Bahamut to be unleashed at the appropriate time. It was always going to happen, and not for the betterment of Garlemald. It was all for the Rejoining. They lost a lot of troops that day.

But it was still employed as a weapon of genocide. That's objectively true.

The Twelve were regarded as nothing more than eikons by the Garlean Empire. Much of the Ala Mhigan's culture revolved around their worship of Rhalgr, including their rather violent past. Despite that violent history and nearly their entire culture revolving around one of the Twelve, they were allowed to keep a good of their identity intact.

And yet again, Gaius van Baelsar stomps out religion, only to deal with an ashkin uprising due to his campaign to wipe out even the most innocuous forms of religious expression. Which is even more hypocritical when you see that Solus is laid to rest at a wake, showing that Garleans have their own burial rites.

[Absimiliard]

...I don't think a conscript would have a Garlean helmet with a third-eye slot and wield a gunblade. "Just following orders" and "indoctrination" stops being a excuse when you willfully disregard acts of violence on the citizens you're supposed to protect, especially under the egalitarian Gaius van Baelsar.

Do you understand just how effective indoctrination can be? Particularly when it gets started young. Garlean propaganda did two things; 1.) it told people everyone from the outside wished to harm, if not kill them -- that outsiders would come and take everything from them, again. 2.) It asserted Garlean superiority. These two messages have been used together in propaganda more than once in real world human history, and the results were always horrifying. Furthermore, I feel it rather curious that you are giving such a specific response to a statement that was clearly meant to be blanket in nature. Note I said "a lot of the ones stoning people and laughing," making it clear I was not referring to the incident which you are referencing. We see conscripts being dicks on numerous occasions.

And yet no Garlean but Gaius and Varis have ever expressed any misgivings about it?

Why would they? They were given no reason to believe the weapon couldn't be controlled. Probably only the upper brass knew about it anyway. That isn't the kind of thing you share with everybody.

This is objectively untrue as Garlean forces employ the Kojin of the Red as mercenaries to hold control Yanxia and the Ruby Sea. Dalamud is, by all counts, deployed as a weapon of genocide against all the peoples of Eorzea.

How, exactly, does employing the Red Kojin in any way infer the Garlean ruling body did not view them as lesser? An effective tool is an effective tool, regardless of what form it takes. The Red Kojin even went so far as to hide their faith so as to avoid becoming targets, while the Blue Kojin continued to practice openly and were therefore subject to persecution. While the general belief of Eorzea's beastmen was that they were tempered, beastmen from other regions, that did not indulge in the summoning of primals, would not necessarily need to be viewed through the same lens. Especially when one group of them is doing a very good job of hiding their religious beliefs.

Furthermore, I would note that your own quotes regarding the subject of Dalamud being used as a weapon specifically note beastmen and their eikons.. Last I checked, the "conventional" races inhabiting Eorzea are not beastmen, and they do not summon eikons despite their worship of the Twelve.

Observe also that it was explicitly not Garlean policy to completely destroy the places they are attempting to conquer if it can be helped. There is a reason they do not often employ the full might of their airships despite that some of them were perfectly capable of turning a major city into smoldering ruins.

But it was still employed as a weapon of genocide. That's objectively true.

In a very different context than the one you are purporting, one the Garlean people had no knowledge of or control over. However, it failed; there was no genocide. Not a single race went extinct as a result of Dalamud's fall and/or Bahamut's rampage, and no ethnic, religious, or national groups died out because of it. Notably, cultural destruction does not in fact constitute genocide as defined in the Oxford dictionary. Nael certainly did try, though. Gaius, for his part, found the whole thing abhorrent.

And yet again, Gaius van Baelsar stomps out religion, only to deal with an ashkin uprising due to his campaign to wipe out even the most innocuous forms of religious expression. Which is even more hypocritical when you see that Solus is laid to rest at a wake, showing that Garleans have their own burial rites.

How is a wake inherently religious, exactly? They certainly can be, but that does not mean all of them are. Many cultures have funeral rites that focus more on their cultural traditions than any kind of religious content. Even real-world atheists often receive burial rites of some sort. Such things are mostly to help the living deal with the loss anyway. The Garleans were hypocrites for a bunch of reasons, but I don't think this is one of them.

Oh, right, real quick: I noticed something I should've replied to earlier, but it slipped my mind: I'm not holding modern Eorzea responsible for the War of the Magi or whatever awful crap the Allag did. I was probably not adequately clear in my separation of those examples. My point was to counter your statement about Garleans being the worst of the bunch. Their atrocities pale in comparison to what took place before they came along. As for modern Eorzea; they've got plenty of skeletons in their closets, not the least of which being at least one case of successful genocide.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Take a look at Eorzea's history. They've done things that make many of the game's villains seem tame by comparison. You know, like the War of the Magi.

The War of the Magi predates the modern city-states of Eorzea by about four hundred years.

[Shurrikhan]

The War of the Magi predates the modern city-states of Eorzea by about four hundred years.

And Allag, also mentioned (just two sentences after), predates them by two Umbral Calamities more, no?

Yet, I wasn't aware the latest set of civilizations had to be present for something to be part of the history of the same continent?

Eorzea isn't just a body of 6* "civilized" nations (and many others outside that descriptor). It's... also the continent itself, with more than 12 eras of history -- the continent on which, yes, the War of the Magi took place, and from which the Allagan Empire started its conquest outword.

* Ishard, Ala Mhigo, Sharlayan, Gridania, Ul'duh, and Limsa Lominsa, with two others only pretty recently having dropped from the count.

Those historical mentions don't seem a warrant for "modern Eorzea deserved whatever the Garleans threw at them*," mind you -- only that the Garleans are far from some outlier, even compared to just the events seen on Eorzea itself, let alone the wider world.

* Though, yes, the majority of our citystates were frequently amoral perpetrators of war crimes and the pogrom-equivalents, spent time as despotic theocracies, etc.

[VelKallor]

Do you understand just how effective indoctrination can be? Particularly when it gets started young. Garlean propaganda did two things; 1.) it told people everyone from the outside wished to harm, if not kill them -- that outsiders would come and take everything from them, again. 2.) It asserted Garlean superiority.

Absimilard you have GOT to start some reading in North Korean education and indoctrination...the words "cradle to grave" apply here.

Terrifying.