A different kidn of question: What do you think a Healer, in MMO/Trinity terms, is?

[Sebazy]

As far as the trinity goes. In the ideal world, a healer is just that. Literally a healer and little more. Even Everquest quickly realised that wasn’t going to pan out though. Clerics aka the pure healers got toys to use even when they had no hope of landing their nukes, whilst the alternate buffing and debuffing healers aka Druids and Shaman (Not clerics, whoops) got stronger heals to better allow them to sub in for a Cleric in CH chains.

The reality is that healer is a poor choice of word. Supports is a better word IMO. In my eyes jobs such as EverQuest’s Shaman, FFXI’s Bard and SCH or WoW’s Resto Shaman and Druid are poster child’s for what a support/healer should be.

[Renathras]

There's decent odds this is kind of a disconnect on your part from the vast majority of the frequent posters here, yeah.

Yeah, which is why I'm asking the question.

I think too often the problem is - because whenever I say "So you guys don't really want a Healer/to play Healers, you want a more Support role?", people attack that super hard as if I insulted their sacred familial cow - that I assume people are being honest when they do that. That they do genuinely like Healing (as I do). But I'm not sure that's true. I think the issue may be down to how we define it, which is why I'm asking this question to see. Roe, I think it was, recently said that she felt in all of MMO history and gaming history that there'd never really been a pure healer (in multiplayer gaming), and the healers always did other things, generally damage dealing. While I disagree with that being a true statement (across MMO history it's obviously not very accurate...), I DO think it was instructive:

We're using the term "Healer" to mean different things.

So this question is to try and get at that. Even if we don't agree on the term, if we understand how each other use it, it could lead to more productive discussions.

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EDIT: I do think, though, that this is the proof of why we need the Four Healers model - BECAUSE people have different ideas of what Healers are and should be, having each of the Healer Jobs have a different focus WOULD help that. A pure healer, a buff healer, a debuff healer, and a damage healer.

The problem is, at present, FFXIV's combat system is super rigid, meaning the differences can only be so large. But at least they COULD exist and be focused on in their gameplay. We already have a little of that - WHM having the most powerful damage nuke and GCD Solace/Rapture spells, AST having buffs, and SCH and SGE both being primed for oGCD healing that they could do on the side while juggling DoTs (SCH) and for a setup where they could have an actual damage rotation that heals via Kardia and assorted mitigation (SGE). So the building blocks are already there for that.

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EDIT2:

Before going too far, I think it is worth considering whether or not ff14 is really a trinity game or just vaguely looks like one.

That is probably a good point to raise, but I think the answer is: Yes, it has a rigid trinity model. Only Tanks can effectively tank most content. Only DPS can effectively DPS at the level needed to beat Enrages (that is, if you have a party of all Tanks or all Healers, they typically will not be able to beat Enrages). Only Healers have sufficient healing (arguably too much, but sufficient) to make it through entire encounters without people dying, or to recover from people taking avoidable damage that kills them [caveat: RDM, which is a semi-hybrid DPS/Healer and SMN which is...weird and largely vestigial/legacy at this point, not by design.]

Though it's not perfectly rigid, this is the design philosophy and is true in all the more challenging content of the game.

So yes, FFXIV is really a trinity game. An oddly rigid one. I say oddly, because it is at once super rigid on one end and on the other (casual content) completely irrelevant, at the same time.

As far as the trinity goes. In the ideal world, a healer is just that. Literally a healer and little more. Even Everquest quickly realised that wasn’t going to pan out though. Clerics aka the pure healers got toys to use even when they had no hope of landing their nukes, whilst the alternate buffing and debuffing healers aka Druids and Shaman (Not clerics, whoops) got stronger heals to better allow them to sub in for a Cleric in CH chains.

The reality is that healer is a poor choice of word. Supports is a better word IMO. In my eyes jobs such as EverQuest’s Shaman, FFXI’s Bard and SCH or WoW’s Resto Shaman and Druid are poster child’s for what a support/healer should be.

Hehe, noticed the Edit. I figured what you meant the first time. [A part of me wants to ask what you think of Panethon - not what it is, but what it wants to be/design goal is for it should they somehow get it to fruition...but a topic for another time.]

I think the issue is that those are two different things.

Support (or Control) tends to have some overlap, but a different focus. I think it might be instructive to consider the "pure" forms of things and then where they are from that, like points of a triangle and then things within them. For example, think of a triangle with three points, labeled each of "Tank", "DPS", and "Healer". Cleric would be the "Healer" point, or VERY nearly to it. Essentially, as close as you could be to "only has buttons that heal", and that being the core essence of the Healer role. The others aren't perfectly clear cut, but the Tank corner would probably have been Warrior, and the DPS point would have probably be...Mage, maybe? Or Rogue, but probably Mage. Vanilla WoW would have this same triangle, btw, just swapping (Holy) Priest for Cleric, Protection Warrior for Warrior and...I think Vanilla was Frost Mage (since Arcane was meh and Molten Snore enemies absorbed fire damage).

Arguably, this should be a tetrahedron (pyramid with all four sides being triangles, or a pyramid with a triangle base if you prefer [as opposed to one with a square base]). The fourth point in that case being "Support". From this tetrahedron, Cleric was the Healer point, Druid was about 30-40% from the Healer point to the DPS point, and Shaman was around 40-50% from the Healer point to the Support point. Paladin was 30% or so from the Tank point traveling to the Healer point, and so on. In essence, each Role had an archetype, and then several variations that leaned towards different disciplines. (This is a simplistic model, but given a tetrahedron is a 3D shape, hard to draw - I made the triangle base in Paint before thinking better of trying to finish it up).

Support is honestly a different role than Healer. The issue is more that Trinity models tend not to HAVE a Support role, so other roles are kind of shoehorned into having "the support one". Games with a Quaternity model, which Everquest arguably had, Vanilla WoW flirted with but never embraced, Guild Wars 1 flirted with and arguably embraced with the Mesmer as the Support/Control archetype, and Pantheon wants to cement as their chosen model, don't have as much of this problem and the scaling is more apparent. In polling of the Pantheon fanbase, around half the DPS players (in other games) say they want to play the Support/Control role instead of DPSer, and something like 5% of Healers and Tanks want to. So the breakdown goes from 18% Tanks, 22% Healers, 60% DPSers (FFXIV's rough numbers) to ~15% Tanks, ~20% Healers, ~30% Control/Support, ~35% DPS. Granted, Control (debuffs)/Support (buffs) are kind of two opposite sides of the same coin, but for the sake of argument "thing that isn't Tanking, Healing, or DPSing" gets a bit more than a quarter support.

The problem is, THOSE PLAYERS in Trinity games get shunted to one of the other three roles, then get annoyed that the other role isn't what they want. A Support player playing Healer may consider it a passable compromise, but they REALLY don't want to play a HEALER, they want to play something that isn't Tank or DPS and is more focused on aiding their allies, but not just being a "healbetch", so to speak. Being a healbot they would find unsatisfying. And while most Trinity games have classes that straddle roles a bit - Paladin even in FFXIV straddles Tank and Healer somewhat, and RDM Healer and DPSer - FFXIV's combat system being so rigid doesn't allow for things like, for example, RDM or PLD healers (in serious content, anyway).

And while BRD and DNC flirt with being Support Jobs, they're really DPS Jobs with some Support abilities.

I do think it's important to note such people ARE NOT a small group - again, in polls of the Pantheon community, Support/Control often rivals DPS in popularity, and in some polls, eclipses it; this is a MASSIVE portion of the MMO population that is consistently underserved - but neither are the other groups; the smallest, Tanks, are still 15-20% of the population (or 3 to 4 out of 20 people) in polls.

The problem comes when they try to take over another role in a Trinity game and convert it to their desired role when (a) the game model doesn't really work for it (e.g. FFXIV with buffing/debuffing) and (b) it sidelines the people who are naturally attracted to the base form of the role.

Folks like me would gladly play Cleric in healing chains while folks like you would prefer Druid or Shaman. IDEALLY, the game should just have both as options, as Everquest did. I suspect, if it ever launches, I'd pick a Dwarf Paladin in Pantheon where you'd prefer Shaman or Druid, like as not, or possibly Bard or Enchanter (Enchanter being the archetype of Control/Support with Bard probably being a bit more DPS or Healing focused, one of the two, or possibly representing the Support side of the coin vs Enchanter being the Control side; though there will probably be a lot of overlap.))

In short, you want more of a Support Healer where I want more of a Main/Pure Healer.

...which is why (I know I sound like a broken record at this point):

The Four Healers Model is the solution, I think.

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But anyway, that's a long tangent off the topic of this thread. Point is, many of you seem to want a Support type of role in this game which doesn't have one (DNC, BRD, and RDM probably come the closest - and I do think it's informative to consider how many of you that don't have a Healer as your Main Class DO have one of those three as your main). It probably SHOULD add one (should have a long time ago - and this is true of WoW, too), but I think it's important for you guys to realize that isn't what Healer is at its core. Which is why there's so much animosity (outside of this subforum) to making all Healers into supports across the board.

AND: It's not just Healers:

There've been active threads in the Tank subforum of them complaining they're just "glorified supports" and they don't like it, either.

[fulminating]

Before going too far, I think it is worth considering whether or not ff14 is really a trinity game or just vaguely looks like one.

[ty_taurus]

Xenblade Chronicles 3 uses the trinity model. Here's an example of the abilities on each class. (The recharge on the tank class here is based on how many auto attacks hit the enemy. Classes fall under two categories, one that has cooldowns in seconds, the other in auto attack hits.)

[ASkellington]

In a trinity MMO rpg a healer is a support class with emphasis on being able to heal IN ADDITION to other things support offers.

A healer should heal, buff/debuff and when possible do dps. The problem with FFXIV healers is they only do ONE of those things. Buffs/debuffs are nonexistent and you already know the complaints about the crappy dps they're stuck with.

And before someone does an "actually" and try to list all the things we have in game already, I'm going to stop you right there and address it: all buffs/debuffs in this game can be summed up as ATK up and ATK down. If you want to be generous, we can even add mitigation to buffs.

Y'wanna know what buffs/debuffs are SUPPOSED to look like? I should be able to regen MP and not just HP. I should be able to apply Haste, reset CDs. I should be able to SLOW enemies up to AND INCLUDING bosses. Negate/Absorb their damage for a time or Stop it all together. Basically my debuffs should be soft forms of CC not unlike Interject/Head Graze and my buffs should be varied instead of blatant Balance BS that AST has now.

And speaking of AST, AST had these buffs. Arguably, WHM and SCH should have had similar ones, and content should have been designed around that along with MCH and BRD also contributing to buffs/debuffs considering that's what their ROLE is suppose to be. Content has been purposefully designed AGAINST buffing allies/debuffing enemies. Great so what does that leave us with? Only healing and dps to juggle with. Great job SE you sure know how to design an MMO.

[Osmond]

………..we’re pretty much doing that right now, just consolidated in a few buttons now that technology has advanced. Everything you are asking for is already in the game, just not in your satisfaction and that’s the problem. It’s a constant, going nowhere complaint that made the community realize that it’s ok to ignore the NA side lol.

[fulminating]

EDIT2:



That is probably a good point to raise, but I think the answer is: Yes, it has a rigid trinity model. Only Tanks can effectively tank most content. Only DPS can effectively DPS at the level needed to beat Enrages (that is, if you have a party of all Tanks or all Healers, they typically will not be able to beat Enrages). Only Healers have sufficient healing (arguably too much, but sufficient) to make it through entire encounters without people dying, or to recover from people taking avoidable damage that kills them [caveat: RDM, which is a semi-hybrid DPS/Healer and SMN which is...weird and largely vestigial/legacy at this point, not by design.]

Though it's not perfectly rigid, this is the design philosophy and is true in all the more challenging content of the game.

So yes, FFXIV is really a trinity game. An oddly rigid one. I say oddly, because it is at once super rigid on one end and on the other (casual content) completely irrelevant, at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O07A5dXHTmI Sure it's off patch, but it's still an ultimate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2V5Fr6-JGo Sure it's only phase 1, but it's still tankless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFcZCEny4x4 Sure it's only normal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2RAm25NLlk Sure it's also only normal, but week 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ healer free dungeon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5TDzbqfEAo oh it's got sebazy in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLDf7V0yZdQ Not that this is really much of a fight


I can't really link any examples of dragoon tanking because it was unremarkable enough noone videoed it. But it was fairly common in containment bay: the one with sephirot in and titan normal/hard for the tanks to become incapacitated and another having to take over, or healer tanking in basically any dungeon if the tank's unable to hold aggro but noone was willing to say yes on the vote kick and so on. Hell there's usually 0 healer/nonstandard runs of on patch extremes if they're worth doing because they're unnecessary.

[ForsakenRoe]

Damn those videos are crazy, especially that last one. How little damage does that damn fight actually do, if the solo healer, with no tank, is able to find that much time to still do damage?

[Renathras]

...

These are exceptions that prove the rule, not evidence that disproves it, though. Though I guess this depends on how you want to define it.

Sebazy's Titan tank (which we have discussed before, I believe...) was absolutely an exception, and Seb even said so. The only one of these examples that's on patch of at all current, high end-ish content (9 years ago isn't exactly "current", even if we didn't say that was an exception) is Ex5, which has an absurdly low damage profile.

Being able to 1 Heal or 1 Tank stuff doesn't change needing one, and the roles in the game - that is, the Jobs in them - are pretty rigidly crammed into a Trinity role. The only real exceptions are RDM and PLD, and they're still firmly in the DPS and Tank roles. SMN is the only other real candidate, and it's "healing" is largely flavor (Phoenix) or vestigial (Resurrection, Physic).

Either way, I think the fair conclusion is that yes, FFXIV is a Trinity game.

Now, you can argue that it doesn't do the Trinity WELL, but not that it's not a Trinity game at all. Contrast to something like Guild Wars 2 at launch (which had no Tank/agro generating classes to speak of, and most classes functioned on self-healing and physically dodging attacks) for an example of something that isn't a Trinity system. While you can argue FFXIV leans in that direction, the GW2 launch classes were all DPS. There was nothing even approaching a Tank or Healer in the normal sense of the terms. It was more like if every Job was DRG or DNC or something.

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EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen, but this is true of Trinity games. I remember there being a guild in Wrath era WoW famous for having an Enhance Shaman main tank...but it was a novelty, not the game's design.

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Anyway, I think the relevant overall point is:

For many of the posters in this forum, "Healer" is more what could generally be described as "Healer/Support" hybrid or in a Quaternity system as "Support/Control" or "Support/DPS". Which is a bit distinct from "Healer" in the normal Trinity sense, which has less DPS/Support/Control in its focus, though often has a "midpoint" or "hybrid" version among some of its classes that lean into those subroles.

Again, Everquest being a good example of the pure Healer (Cleric) vs the Healer/Support hybrid (Shaman) and Healer/Damage hybrid (Druid). Note that these were all HEALERS (as opposed to the more Support Enchanter and Bard or the outright DPS Rogue, Ranger, Wizard), but Cleric was the archetype core and Druid and Shaman hybrids of that archetype leaning into the two adjacent roles.

Indeed, FFXIV arguably did this in ARR with WHM being like the Cleric and SCH being a mix of Shaman and Druid.

[ty_taurus]

Everquest is 24 years old now, which is ancient in gaming years. Is there any example of an MMO that features healers that are not capable of DPSing that has been made within the last 5 years at least?