How MUCH healing can non-Healers do?

[ty_taurus]

I don't believe that the only solution to good healer gameplay requires converting future content into attrition healing while abandoning all existing content, nor do I think having a more GCD focused resource system is inherently negative. We do need changes, but there are things we can do within the encounter design model that can create a far healthier environment for players of all skill levels.

First, I propose a phoenix down rework. You can hold more than 1, can use them during combat with a 2 minute cooldown on the GCD, they do not share a cooldown with other items, and they have no cast time. Additionally, phoenix downs cannot be used in high end duties, and the option to disable them is added to the duty finder settings. Once per day, you can claim 1 for free for clearing any roulette. There is a palpable pressure on healers to not fail in group content out of fear of dooming the other members of their team, or force them to clear with 1 man down. This also means if this pressure is factored into the difficulty of the healer role by the design team, that they can now more comfortably increase the skill ceiling of healers.

Next, we increase the frequency of damage taken within the current structure of how content is designed, this includes everything from dugneons to savage. Right now, too many bosses won't even deal unavoidable damage to the party more than once or twice during an entire fight, meanwhile healers largely generate free healing resources every 20 seconds, lilies, addersgall, aetherflow... I've been watching some old videos of A4S runs, such as this one, and while A4S is not the best example of good fight design, I do want to note the regular appearance of orbs that must be popped and the use of untelegraphed damage through Laser Diffusion which randomly hits different players throughout the second half of the fight. In easier content, the damage dealt by these types of regular mechanics can just be chip damage, maybe around 10% of any player's HP or so, but can add up slowly while giving healers more things to actually heal.

I'd also want to see more debuffs come into play that offer healers a decision to make about how to handle it. Take Disease for example, a debuff that reduces the amount of HP restored to the target. It can be healed through, or removed through Esuna. By having this occur frequently in everything from dungeons onward, it creates more opportunties for healers to find their own path through a given fight. Doom I would also include more often, but change it so that every instance of Doom can either be Esuna'd or removed by healing the target to full. This makes it easier to resolve for any healer, but also creates a choice for the healer.

Lastly, I'd rework the healers to have optimized gameplay be about maintaining DPS uptime. Standard heals should feel powerful to use, having no MP cost, low or no cast times, and no cooldowns, but come at the opportunity cost of your damage. Meanwhile your more advanced tools aren't as strong and have resource costs (gauge costs, MP, cooldowns, or a combination of the 3), potentially longer cast times, but can be performed at no loss of damage, either through a system like the blood lily or addersting, or by doing DPS neutral damage as well like with Pneuma and Macrocosmos. Managing MP can also change from being an automatic system that refunds your MP taxes through use-on-cooldown actions to a choice that must be balanced with your healing resources to maintain your offensive momentum. Since your standard DPS skills and safety net heals have no MP cost, there is no fear of bricking yourself due to ambitious MP usage. Essentially, all the consequences fall entirely on the healer's ability to maintain their uptime, not their ability to heal and keep the party alive. Uptime is also not required at all from healers in nearly every aspect of FFXIV, and even when it is required, there's still breathing room to drop uptime for recovery in savage and ultimate.

These three key points can certainly create an environment that would feel different to what we currently have in a way that allows skilled healers to push their gameplay without preventing novice healers from keeping up with virtually every aspect of the game shy of savage and ultimate.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeah, the argument of "We can't change healing! That would require changing all old content and that's impossible! But we can change DPSing and that wouldn't change anything!" seems, at best, likely incorrect, and at worse, a fig leaf to cover for the lack of a counter-argument. They've made so many changes to healing and not gone back and changed old content at this point as to prove the argument wrong. And even when examples can be cited to tweaks to old content, all that proves is that they can easily do that with a healing change now.

I think the issue is Roe REALLY wants more damage buttons, not more healing requirement (that requires the GCD), and so will oppose any change that would do the latter rather than the former. There's a real fear that, if they did the healing change, and it worked, they wouldn't get their more damage buttons. It's always couched as a fear for the casual player, but considering how often casual players are derided, it's unlikely that's the genuine intent.

I make no claims about what that means for the type of healer they want to be, only as a matter of what the fear is and why such animosity to a different kind of change is expressed.

100% projection, especially the second paragraph.

I think the issue is Ren REALLY wants more healing requirement, not more damage rotation complexity, and so will oppose any change that would do the latter rather than the former. There's a real fear that, if they did the damage rotation change, and it worked, they wouldn't get their more damage buttons 'press Medica until clear' gameplay. It's always couched as a fear for the casual player, but considering how often casual players are derided, it's unlikely that's the genuine intent.'

I had no issues with the 'overwhelming HPS requirement' that Barb EX apparently had week 1. I've cleared TEA before the statsquish. I've done 'hard healing requirements', I've done my time in jail with the Living Liquid. If we ramp 'healing requirements' to the point where I agree that it is a good change, you won't be able to keep up. Nor will most casual players. I don't suggest 'more damage buttons' because I'm desperately married to the idea of 'more damage buttons'. I suggest it because I cannot foresee a way to solve the issue the role faces, that doesn't screw casual players over in some way, and 'more damage buttons' happens to be the least impactful to those players' day to day. Again, if you care to actually read my post, you will note that I talk about how, in prog, we 'not-real healers who ask for more damage options' are completely fine with saccing our damage to put up shields for safety, or to put a Medica2 out to help keep people alive. And that I often do so even in my BIS gear, because if I have a choice between 'risk one GCD greeding for a stupid colored number on a stupid 3rd party website' or 'put up an extra shield to be safe and get the clear more smoothly', I very often end up taking option B because wiping means another 6-8 minutes of being in the fight praying nobody makes a mistake.

I quit Ret Paladin in BFA within a month of it's launch because it'd have dead times in it's kit where no buttons were available to press. The one thing that pisses me off more than anything else in an MMO is standing there, having nothing to do or press to contribute to the fight. I hate when mechanics that force downtime so the player can solve them, like High Concept or Devour. So the idea of 'how healers should be, cos thats how they were in the past', of standing around waiting for bloody MP5 ticks, is abhorrent to me. Other people want to stand around like targetdummies for the boss, whatever, if I was there and waiting for MP5 I'd be wanding the boss to at least help with damage (and getting Judgement of Wisdom procs to help get my mana back faster). It's a cooperative game, with a timer to beat on the content (enrage), so you bet your bottom dollar that if I can safely help my team to beat that timer in some way, I'll do that.

No, what I think is happening here is that YOU are scared that if they make healers have a more complex damage rotation, even if by one skill, you will be attacked by some imaginary boogeyman elitist for not using that skill in the content you do that does not require you to use that skill. Oh woe and despair, for Ren is unable to farm the new EX trial because he refused to use Banish, and got kicked from the party because the fight took 20 seconds longer! Ignore the part where you can clear an EX trial without using your DOT as a healer even once. Stop projecting, you could spend the time you spend here on this forums arguing with evil elitist toxic Samantha practicing your class more, clearing tougher content, and eventually having the same realization that most of us already got past: 'you don't need to heal all that much in this game, really'

stuff

See, this is better, rather than just saying 'we need to damage less and heal more because healers should heal', actual details on how to go about implementing that. The points can be debated in their efficacy, a solution amicable to all can be worked on via consensus. There's stuff to agree and disagree with, like I agree that Phoenix Downs are pointless as it stands, and should see a rework of some sort to help alleviate the burden of 'if the healer dies we're just screwed'. However, I'd argue to make it a shared charge system, so you can get, say... One Down at the start of the fight, and a charge is added every 5 minutes. (no inspiration drawn from other games, honest) This way, healers are still the 'go to resurrection' machine, but in an absolute emergency someone can get the healer back up. And it doesn't 'devalue' the utility of the RDM being able to res, as while everyone can res via the PD, the RDM remains unique in that it has 'healer style ressing'. I assume SMN will lose it's res at some point though

More uses for Esuna would be very welcome, and it would also open up BRD's skill to being considered a valued utility more too. One of the main criticisms of Shake It Off originally was the lack of debuffs to actually use it on, hence it's rework into Veil 2. If WAR had kept it's 'pacification after Berserk' effect, Old Shake would have been lauded as the best thing since sliced bread. Able to get rid of the pacification, without having to beg the healer via obnoxious macros? Wow sign me up

And I've also called for 'the trash basic GCDs' to be zero MP cost (on SGE at least), so as to reduce the burden on casuals of 'oh no I'm panicking, oh no I've screwed up my MP economy because I was panicking, now I'm panicking more aaaaa'. It also creates choices for the healer.

Picture: you're a WHM, you need to AOE heal something like J-waves, do you A: Lily which is damage neutral (but limited to 3), B: Cure 3, which is damage losing and costs MP, but is stronger, or C: Medica1, which is also damage losing, but MP free? Maybe you purposely use Medica first, and keep your MP for later when the damage stacks are building up, then swap to Cure3. Maybe you use a couple of Cure3's to start, then use Lilies to get a zero-MPcost window, to restore a bit of MP so you can Cure3 more without running dry. Stuff like that



Basically, contrary to what some people imply about me, I'd be completely fine with all of the healing the game asks of me to be in the same style as Barb EX or Living Liquid's Splash spam. The question is, how much damage does it do, and how many GCDs are going to be forcibly dedicated to countering the damage? How do you make a design like that forgiving for casuals, but still engaging for veterans? How do we avoid falling into the same trap we have now, where vets can almost completely ignore the damage being done in casual content? Very few if any people are actually talking details and numbers on that, just 'oh it'd be good if we did this' wishful thinking

[AmiableApkallu]

Lastly, I'd rework the healers to have optimized gameplay be about maintaining DPS uptime. Standard heals should feel powerful to use, having no MP cost, low or no cast times, and no cooldowns, but come at the opportunity cost of your damage. ……… Essentially, all the consequences fall entirely on the healer's ability to maintain their uptime, not their ability to heal and keep the party alive. Uptime is also not required at all from healers in nearly every aspect of FFXIV, and even when it is required, there's still breathing room to drop uptime for recovery in savage and ultimate.

These three key points can certainly create an environment that would feel different to what we currently have in a way that allows skilled healers to push their gameplay without preventing novice healers from keeping up with virtually every aspect of the game shy of savage and ultimate.

(Emphasis mine.)

I'm not sure how it makes sense to tie consequences to something that doesn't actually matter in the vast majority of the game's content and to something the game itself does an abysmal job of providing feedback on (you really need a friend furiously scribbling down your damage numbers in a spreadsheet). Consequences should be felt.

Consider BLM Ley Lines. You can feel the faster cast times standing in them. You can "lol, that was a bad idea" when you see that you plunked them down in the path of mechanics. You can imagine, "if I knew the fight better…." The button has an element of fun, an element of failure, and an element of nudging you towards better play. This design works because in the vast majority of content, that failure is enough to be felt, but it's not fatal to the encounter. The nudge towards better play is enough to trigger a self-improvement instinct without making you feel like you must figure out what's Optimal and Perfect.

GCD heals with MP costs function similarly. You can see HP bars go up. You can fret about your MP after spamming the button for 42 GCDs in a row. You can imagine, "if I didn't spam the button and tried something else…." Trading the MP cost for a damage cost breaks the design in the vast majority of content where optimal damage simply doesn't matter. The heals become freebie buttons devoid of any real weight. That might be great for novice anime healers who are so fearful of failure that they've grown allergic to DPS buttons, but there's a big gap between them and connoisseurs of high-scoring spreadsheets.

[ty_taurus]

(Emphasis mine.)

I'm not sure how it makes sense to tie consequences to something that doesn't actually matter in the vast majority of the game's content and to something the game itself does an abysmal job of providing feedback on (you really need a friend furiously scribbling down your damage numbers in a spreadsheet). Consequences should be felt.

Consider BLM Ley Lines. You can feel the faster cast times standing in them. You can "lol, that was a bad idea" when you see that you plunked them down in the path of mechanics. You can imagine, "if I knew the fight better…." The button has an element of fun, an element of failure, and an element of nudging you towards better play. This design works because in the vast majority of content, that failure is enough to be felt, but it's not fatal to the encounter. The nudge towards better play is enough to trigger a self-improvement instinct without making you feel like you must figure out what's Optimal and Perfect.

GCD heals with MP costs function similarly. You can see HP bars go up. You can fret about your MP after spamming the button for 42 GCDs in a row. You can imagine, "if I didn't spam the button and tried something else…." Trading the MP cost for a damage cost breaks the design in the vast majority of content where optimal damage simply doesn't matter. The heals become freebie buttons devoid of any real weight. That might be great for novice anime healers who are so fearful of failure that they've grown allergic to DPS buttons, but there's a big gap between them and connoisseurs of high-scoring spreadsheets.

Uptime is not required in most content, but that doesn't mean it can't be felt or has no impact. The point is, a party will not wipe because the healer is not attacking, or not performing their rotation correctly, but that doesn't mean proper optimization and uptime management wouldn't shorten the duration of a fight, because it would. The system would exist to provide a reward to the healers that master their craft without punishing the healers simply learning, or not looking to become masters of healing. And it's how things have worked already anyway, only healers are punished with monotonous gameplay for mastering their craft.

[AmiableApkallu]

The point is, a party will not wipe because the healer is not attacking, or not performing their rotation correctly, but that doesn't mean proper optimization and uptime management wouldn't shorten the duration of a fight, because it would. The system would exist to provide a reward to the healers that master their craft without punishing the healers simply learning, or not looking to become masters of healing. And it's how things have worked already anyway, only healers are punished with monotonous gameplay for mastering their craft.

On the one hand: I agree, Good DPS does shorten fight durations, Bad DPS lengthens fight durations. My experience tells me as much.

On the other hand: It takes a lot of good/bad DPS to change the duration of a fight in a way that's really felt. And I'm not convinced one or two healer's performance is enough to count as "a lot." (Short of going to extremes, such as "will literally uninstall the game if they have to DPS", which I think is an outlier not worth considering.)