I didn't think I'd miss Kaiten that much...

[CelestiCer]

I'm not saying that more buttons is better, but this game is just simply made with 25+ buttons in mind, that's the end of it. With 30-45 APM and 2-2.5 GCD, you have enough time to use any shift+XY modifiers or even mouse click. This is just borderline minimal difficulty. Auto combo will hopefully not ever be implemented, so I would recommend to have a look at your keybinds.

Agreed. FFXIV's Job gameplay is not difficult. Every Job has nuances, but after Square lobotomizes nearly everything... Job difficulty becomes utterly meaningless. Compare it to say Black Deserts design where you have

• Positional increased bonus DPS
• Positional Crowd Control
• Positional Crowd Control upon you!
• Increased DPS based on how you CC someone
• Numerous Combinations of Combo's like a Fighting game
• Attack angles can be approached from slopes cliffs towers walls etc
• Interactions with having or facing opponents with Mana / Stamina and Guard Gauges
• Mobility maneuvers tight to said resources
• Multiple skills give brief DPS/Cast speed/Move speed buffs lasting for seconds
• Multiple skills can CC in multiple ways
• This game deals with Classes having Grabs to throw you down to the ground
• Nearly every Attack as an AoE so you can miss everything!
• Attacks and moves with Frontal Guard
• Attack and moves with Super armor ( immunity vs CC with increased defense )
• Moves with Iframes ( A small frame where you're untouchable )
• Every player has Black Spirit Rage, essentially your limit break not just a party

Comparing Black Deserts Classes combat design to FFXIV Jobs? it just has more depth. But that doesn't mean this can be applied or is perfect because this is still a PvP focused design, this is why Black Deserts PvE is just a grind fest. It's just to showcase how simple FFXIV's job design is. It has nothing of any of this. FFXIV's job design is not complex and its sad to see it become from simple to out right dumb and lobotomized.

Square can do way better then this, they shown they can - but for some reason we're on this pathway to make jobs Dumber, less Buttons, less flare, less thinking, less of everything at the cost of what? unobtainable perfect balance? pleasing some players who won't even put in the effort to read some tooltips or a touch striking dummy once a month? Their little finger breaking cause it's 1 button to much to handle with their XIVcombo Plugin? bleh...

[ForsakenRoe]

Get rid of Eukrasian consolidation.

Paradox should be a separate button.

Each continuation on Gunbreaker should be its own button.


Summoner? 3 ruins or 10 ruins, they should be their own keybinds!

Ten Chi Jin? You should have to hit Ninjutsu between them, casual.

Every single consolidation needs to be removed, else somebody might look at my game and think it's too easy.

These ones specifically are funny to me. Eukrasia only saves us 3 buttons total. I've got a second copy of Krasis where my Adlo is on SCH (2), because of Eukrasia's space-saving effect. It would change a lot less than you think.

Paradox being it's own button probably wouldn't change anything either. It's not like we use Blizzard 1 for anything anymore, so BLMs would just move it there and manually replace Bliz 1. Just like the game automatically does now, I guess.

GNB used to have it's Gnashing Fang combo as seperate buttons, and I still don't really like that they consolidated it. 1-2-1-2-1-2 isn't as fun feeling as 1-4-2-4-3-4. And Continuation would remain consolidated, despite your exaggeration, because it's the 'pull the trigger to enhance the effect of the used skill' button. You're pulling the trigger the same way for each Continuation, it's the previous skill that changes what it does. Better not let me near the design sheets though, or I'll make Burst Strike the Continuation of your 123 (any step), Hypervelocity from DoubleDown, Fated Circle from your AOE 1/2 combo (either step), Blasting Zone costs a cartridge, Solid Barrel generates two, your Max is six like in the trailer, and Bloodfest generates six. You thought APM was rough now, my design will have your hands falling off

Summoner might actually be a fun and well received class if it had stuff more seperated. If you could summon any of the six base primals, and mix/match their skills in any order (having summoned them to get their lego-power first), it'd potentially be a lot more interesting than 'this is Ruin 3, but the cast time is longer' and 'this is Ruin 3, but the cast time is instant'. Seriously, why does it just reuse Ruin 3's animation, couldn't they recolor it or anything? Anyway, imagine the primal skills are more creative. Ifrit's filler skill is no longer 'long cast time', instead allowing you to conjure phantom Ifrit arms to slice at the enemy, doing a Cone AOE. Titan's filler skill a Landslide line AOE, which you then follow up with the OGCD weave of Mountain Buster (cone AOE). Shiva's skills are a three part combo of Staff (circle AOE on enemy), Bow (cone AOE), Sword/Shield (Cone AOE again). etc. BLU feels more like what I'd want SMN's filler GCDs to look like

And NIN used to have to press Ninjutsu between each Mudra during TCJ. 1-4-2-4-3-4. It was this way for all of 4.0, and 5.0, it only changed in 5.1 when they made the Mudras GCD.

But yeh we should remove absolutely every single button consolidation in the game, regardless of their practicality, or sensibility. And not what I was getting at, the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222' is really stupid and the mark of a bad player. Some consolidations are good. Consolidating Shoha and Shoha2 for example would be good. Some stuff should have been consolidated upgrades instead of seperate buttons, eg Orogeny for WAR should have been an upgrade to Upheaval that gave AOE falloff, not 'lmao seperate button with shared CD'. Looking into it, I even see a couple I'd say 'yep that's good', like Ikishoten becoming Ogi, or Scattershot becoming Autocrossbow during Overheat. But then you have the stupid side of what the plugin does, consolidating the main GCD loop of the class. Or, by the looks of it, making it so you don't even need to press 1-2 for Continuation in Gnashing Fang, as it puts the Continuation onto the same button? So you have a burst window of 111111, incredible. And I'm meant to take someone who advocates for that kind of change seriously, at least it explains who SE's designing jobs for

[ZiraZ]

the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222'

wtf
Maybe we do need that anti-cheat tool implemented after all, ban all those people from existence.

[CelestiCer]

But yeh we should remove absolutely every single button consolidation in the game, regardless of their practicality, or sensibility. And not what I was getting at, the idea that 'using a plugin to change your 12345 67854' combo on DRG into '11111 22222' is really stupid and the mark of a bad player.

This. " XIVCombo " reeks of AutoPlaying and laziness. How this even is a suggestible way of playing is out right shameful. If players want to do it? w/e. But players shouldn't suggest dragging everyone else into forcefully wanting to play the game like it is with XIVCombo... like what in the...

The repeated argument points Kaiten seemingly always 1 button to difficult and simultaneously mocked as a Button " you press every-time " to easy by posters who swap from to ez and to difficult when it suits their narrative? Even though Kaiten never stood in the way of clearing Content... Skill-issues? like Steven He would put it: " Failures ".

You know what would be a better argument point that I rarely ever get to hear as the main argument against Kaiten? " Kaiten isn't Fun ". That's a good argument point. Instead I get...

• Badly designed because I have no idea
• You needed XIV Combo a plugin to deal with it
• Current button count is somehow to much
• Its a button you press every time btw
• Kaiten is pointless, yet somehow ever other self-buff button isn't
• GNB/MCH main, but I play SAM maybe in guildhest! here's my un-experienced take

I'll never hear players trying to proof how much more thoughtful Shinten spamming is as good design. So at the very least how much more Fun that is without Kaiten <- also something you'll rarely hear as the main argument point.

[Semirhage]

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

[Deo14]

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

You have option to do 1-2 which deals more damage or 1-3 which heals you. Well, now you have a choice, but why would you ever do 1-3 when you have dedicated healer? Why would tank use option which gives more mitigation, when damage is all that matters in this game? Another way are procs, but then you just do X, if it procs you do Y, if not Z. So tell me, what kind of skill expression do you expect in this game without reworking entire combat?

There are DRG combos. Technically you have a choice, but obviously there is predetermined optimal rotation. WAR uses 1-2-4 to keep buff, 1-2-3 for damage. But this is peak of skill expression you can make in this game. This is just fate of every rotation, not just in FFXIV. There will always be optimal way, having "choice" to fuck it up by pressing wrong button is last possible skill expression.

You try to claim that 1-2-3 is barely a skill and that it's not interesting. But this is last skill capacity this game has. And if it really was so easy as you suggest, then why is there such a significant deviation while parsing ANY kind of content? There are dungeons and trials which have striking dummies as a boss, yet people still can't even do their rotation properly here, or in a lot of cases, don't even know it. This uninteresting 1-2-3 is last thing that gives job's gameplay any depth. Why would you want to make this even easier than it is, if you suck, it doesn't even matter since only Savage+ has DPS checks.

[fulminating]

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

Willingly forcing healer rotations on yourself is the kind of masochism I can’t get my head around

[Lyth]

The main reason why variations in performance exist is because of uptime, not because you can't remember that button two follows button one. Combos are more a tactile aesthetic than they are any form of skill expression.

If you want decision-making, then you need to have some element of randomness, either in the rotation itself or in the fight design.

[CelestiCer]

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

:3 ...............................................

( these players exist - these players exist - these players exist - these.... )

[ForsakenRoe]

What's wrong with XIVCombo? Abilities that don't create choice aren't interesting. Static 1-2-3 combos aren't interesting. You never deviate from them. There is no scenario where you'd go from 2 back to 1, unless the combo proc fell off. Pressing them in order is barely "skill". By all means, have 1-2-3 combos if you wish for animation variety...but why devote hotbar real estate to them? Skill expression is way more interesting than dead, unidirectional, one-dimensional flowcharts.

You're right, so we should change PLD from 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 to 1-1-1-1-1-1-2 /s

How can you, on one hand, consistently call out WHM for being the stalest white bread imaginable, and then on the other ask for other non-caster classes to have their main filler be reduced to that same white-bread status? You think eg DRG will stay 'more interesting' than the healers because of their burst? The fact they press High Jump each 30s like how WHM presses Assize every 45? SMN's already bordering on healer-levels of 'press mostly one button' and it's the most divisive job in the game, it's like radioactive Marmite

Pressing Atonement after finishing Royal Authority isn't 'interesting', sure. But I still mess it up on rare occasions. It's something 'more' to think about than onebutton 'you are physically incapable of screwing up' mode. Same as how Kaiten and 'remember to save 20 gauge for it instead of mashing Shinten brainlessly' is not 'hard' per se, or even 'interesting' to some. But it's definitely 'more' than what we have now, where we just press Shinten when we're going to overcap, and spam mash it in raidbuffs

The only way to justify PVP combos in PVE is if SE were to add new actions that would replace that hotbar space, that are interesting to use

You try to claim that 1-2-3 is barely a skill and that it's not interesting. But this is last skill capacity this game has. And if it really was so easy as you suggest, then why is there such a significant deviation while parsing ANY kind of content? There are dungeons and trials which have striking dummies as a boss, yet people still can't even do their rotation properly here, or in a lot of cases, don't even know it. This uninteresting 1-2-3 is last thing that gives job's gameplay any depth. Why would you want to make this even easier than it is, if you suck, it doesn't even matter since only Savage+ has DPS checks.

Hitting positionals is one thing we still have, but some people want that to be removed too. Some bosses already don't have positionals, I can't wait for melee to be able to just stand wherever tf they like, having 100% uptime because the boss's hitbox is the size of a continent, and still get 10% more damage than the other roles because of the bloody 'ranged tax' or 'res tax' or whatever ridiculous explanation. What's the reasoning for 'why melee is justified in doing so much more damage than ranged in P7S', where 90% of the arena is 'you can hit the boss from here'?