"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[KatiaRelanah]

I believe that mentality is why dungeon mechincas are so braindead easy, atleast so far your not expecting people to use their brain and calculate in their head how much damage the mops do at theirm max divided by how much the healer can heal you for on avarage. then throwing in the math of how you degress damage with cooldowns and the such. I think that mentality right there needs to end, so things can be made more diffuclt expect people to use a little brain cells, and education when you play through content. I mean come on expect a little educational ability from people, games rated 13+ thats around the time you should understand simple things.

This is only viable in endgame content, with a known party comp.

By which I mean: while the difference gets frighteningly small, DPSes have different damage output, especially AoE wise. Some get full AoE combos with potency bonuses and everything by level X, others have a single AoE all the way through Level Y. Tanks and healers all have small differences between their non-role abilities, not to mention what we'll call the sub-role differences (healing tank vs defense tank; shield healer vs active healer). And then, of course, throw in gear differences in ilvl-appropriate content (i.e. not stat squished anyway).

There's already a place in the game for relatively-error-free gameplay, it's Savages. Virtually-error-free, Ultimates. I'm not necessarily defending the braindeadness of dungeons/normal content, just saying that you can't expect the precise balance of these endgame content types in something meant to serve the lowest common denominator.

[Boblawblah]

YPYT tanks are literally inventing the pulling "role", courtesy of absolutely nothing official, and claiming they aren't the ones hindering play/failing to do their duties.

Here's the most that has ever been officially said about Tanks, as a role:

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/



Nothing there says anything about pulling. It IS explicit that you are to

- keep the foe's attention
And
- bear the brunt of enemy attacks

Now, I invite anyone ITT who defends/supports YPYT to find anything, in game or on the official sites, that says ANYTHING about responsibilities as to pulling. If you can find that, I'll keep my peace.

No, alleging that it is some sort of "unspoken rule" that tanks are "supposed" to pull doesn't change the fact that this is an unofficial term thrown on by the community. Nobody is bound to unofficial community rules; you ARE bound to the job description, just as much as a healer is to heal or a DPS is to do damage as quickly as they can.

No, liberal application/interpretation of vague statements about affecting others' play doesn't count, because if it does, by YPYTing you are the only one demonstrably acting against what little guidance we have as to role responsibilities, i.e. you are either or both of not keeping foes' attention nor bearing enemy attacks. Nothing there says anything about who initially got the foes' attention, just that you're to keep it; nothing saying anything about only taking attacks from enemies you feel like, just bearing enemy attacks (with what I should hope is the obvious unspoken fact of it being ALL enemy attacks, but I know this will be waved away).

So if people are "literally inventing the pulling 'role'" (LITERALLY), who normally makes the first attack when you're in a dungeon? And why do you suppose that is?

[RyuDragnier]

Being a tank is a thankless job. As a tank, your job is to...well, tank. That is all. In my opinion, if others are pulling for their tank, then said tank isn't moving fast enough. If a tank keeps going at a decent pace, most will be content to simply follow. The whole "you pull it, you tank it" mentality only causes things to go needlessly slower and become far more stressful than it needs to be for everyone involved.

Really depends. You can be rushing through with sprint and using the gap closer, and sometimes you'll STILL see a RPR/NIN/DNC rushing ahead of you to pull more. Yes, because apparently being on Sprint and using your gap closer to rush to mobs isn't fast enough. It's silly, if not a bit annoying.

[Vahlnir]

Really depends. You can be rushing through with sprint and using the gap closer, and sometimes you'll STILL see a RPR/NIN/DNC rushing ahead of you to pull more. Yes, because apparently being on Sprint and using your gap closer to rush to mobs isn't fast enough. It's silly, if not a bit annoying.

I've never had a problem with that, personally.

[Kolaina]

Really depends. You can be rushing through with sprint and using the gap closer, and sometimes you'll STILL see a RPR/NIN/DNC rushing ahead of you to pull more. Yes, because apparently being on Sprint and using your gap closer to rush to mobs isn't fast enough. It's silly, if not a bit annoying.

How are they getting ahead when the tank is sprinting and using closers? Is the tank stopping between packs then? Doesn’t make sense

[Chloe_Saunders]

This is only viable in endgame content, with a known party comp.

By which I mean: while the difference gets frighteningly small, DPSes have different damage output, especially AoE wise. Some get full AoE combos with potency bonuses and everything by level X, others have a single AoE all the way through Level Y. Tanks and healers all have small differences between their non-role abilities, not to mention what we'll call the sub-role differences (healing tank vs defense tank; shield healer vs active healer). And then, of course, throw in gear differences in ilvl-appropriate content (i.e. not stat squished anyway).

There's already a place in the game for relatively-error-free gameplay, it's Savages. Virtually-error-free, Ultimates. I'm not necessarily defending the braindeadness of dungeons/normal content, just saying that you can't expect the precise balance of these endgame content types in something meant to serve the lowest common denominator.

That right there is a major proplem for the game, and honestly I don't that mentality of here is endgame for requiring some brain power, have fun now as a good thing.

People will always choice the lazy of doing something thats why honestly in games there should be pressure that makes you want to preform better, to get better to overcome obsticals and as mean as it sounds "get good" I believe that from what i've seen from the game so far its supported stupidity way to much for the games future good. If you don't expect people to grow, you will always have to make braindead content period. THAT NEEDS TO STOP! I'm sorry for all caps and I'm sorry this mean but this needs to end in gaming, there is difference of making something massively hard like an extreme or savage,mythic+ and making the thing challanging which they fail to do from what ive seen. Youve got no reason to grow all you do is repeat the same thing just different names at timings. That is not a good thing I'm sorry but it not and that needs to stop ASAP and expect people to learn and grow as they work there way up the ladder to the top levels ... this turned out to be a rant and I'm sorry for that

I just can't stomach the expecting of be stupid and follow this matter for the rest of your life playing the game. never grow just always do x and go to y with w


we should be making errors to learn and get better to grow as players, not be oh here is simple task for you go have fun, and then your hit with brickwall at mythic+ opr savage or w/e on this game and then its like boom now you have to use your brain after the rest of all you ever did ment really nothing in your growth of skill. The point of making errors is to learn from them, and hoenstly things should be more stricked on errors so people learn from them.

I'm not going to look at this thread anymore I'm going to go read a book and relax.. sorry for the rant but the truth is the truth



ps. people can do anything they just need to be pushed into growing and the game fails to push that button to ready people to do savage or mythic plus or extreme

[KatiaRelanah]

So if people are "literally inventing the pulling 'role'" (LITERALLY), who normally makes the first attack when you're in a dungeon? And why do you suppose that is?

Yes, literally. Please show me where in the game description, documentation, official literature, etc. pulling is described as a responsibility for any particular job/class/role. Oh, you can't? Meanwhile I can find an official SE/FFXIV site blurb about tank's responsibility. Hey, it's not MY fault the tanks are failing to adhere to what the devs literally (in writing, typed out, explicitly stated in textual format, all of these apply) said is expected of them. If I am playing the game as a healer or DPS, expecting other players to do their jobs as described, just as I am. When I do play as tank, I do my due diligence to keep glancing at party list and see if, based on HP bars, whether I accidentally failed to grab a mob because of a bad AoE usage, or I didn't notice an add, and either way get and keep the foes' attention from my party members. I, at least, can do what I am expected to do in my role. Sorry you can't do the same, apparently.

Go report someone for "pulling early" in a Hunt, see how far that takes you lmao. Same logic of "b-but the whole unofficial community says -" til SE makes it a rule that everyone in a zone must agree to a pull time, no, early pulls are not against the terms, rules, standards, etc. as dictated by the people who made the game. What IS against the terms? Tanks not fulfilling their basic job of "keeping the foe's attention". Not "certain foes", not "only foes they themselves pulled", any and all enemies that threaten the party.

It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the community adhered to this "standard" of "tanks are the pullers", they're not by any definition. And I'd even say that, both from this thread and my experience in game, if you're going by "community rules", W2W as a standard in content past certain thresholds in expac and/or level (the only debate really being where the line is actually drawn)is a far more prevalent "rule" than "only tanks can pull".

[RyuDragnier]

How are they getting ahead when the tank is sprinting and using closers? Is the tank stopping between packs then? Doesn’t make sense

Yes, the tank is stopping for a single AoE just to make sure the adds don't wander off them.

[Boblawblah]

Yes, literally. Please show me where in the game description, documentation, official literature, etc. pulling is described as a responsibility for any particular job/class/role. Oh, you can't? Meanwhile I can find an official SE/FFXIV site blurb about tank's responsibility. Hey, it's not MY fault the tanks are failing to adhere to what the devs literally (in writing, typed out, explicitly stated in textual format, all of these apply) said is expected of them. If I am playing the game as a healer or DPS, expecting other players to do their jobs as described, just as I am. When I do play as tank, I do my due diligence to keep glancing at party list and see if, based on HP bars, whether I accidentally failed to grab a mob because of a bad AoE usage, or I didn't notice an add, and either way get and keep the foes' attention from my party members. I, at least, can do what I am expected to do in my role. Sorry you can't do the same, apparently.

Go report someone for "pulling early" in a Hunt, see how far that takes you lmao. Same logic of "b-but the whole unofficial community says -" til SE makes it a rule that everyone in a zone must agree to a pull time, no, early pulls are not against the terms, rules, standards, etc. as dictated by the people who made the game. What IS against the terms? Tanks not fulfilling their basic job of "keeping the foe's attention". Not "certain foes", not "only foes they themselves pulled", any and all enemies that threaten the party.

It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the community adhered to this "standard" of "tanks are the pullers", they're not by any definition. And I'd even say that, both from this thread and my experience in game, if you're going by "community rules", W2W as a standard in content past certain thresholds in expac and/or level (the only debate really being where the line is actually drawn)is a far more prevalent "rule" than "only tanks can pull".

So who usually pulls then?

[KatiaRelanah]

So who usually pulls then?

Anyone who wants to.