"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Atelier-Bagur]

How about you tank, you pull?

[Xirean]

Unironically, threads/debates like this make me wish SE would just make the mob packs hard set so nobody can choose to pull big or small. The arguing is extremely annoying.

[WaxSw]

I suggest you redo the hall of the novice. Especially the tank part where new tank players get told how to pull. Guess who doesn't get told to pull? DPS

You mean the hall of the novice that has a part where the allies have aggro before the tank and hence they pulled?

Besides nothing there mentions that a tank has to pull but that they have to grab enmity from the party doesn't matter who has it, quoting "yer job is to soak up the pain an keep yer mates safe" nothing about pulling is said. "You pull you tank" is not only a bad mentality but also MPK with extra steps and MPK is against the TOS (and one could argue that is lethargic gameplay too)

[Voltyblast]

In theory, it's not bad: dps should learn to wait before dpsing, and while it is a little over the top and unnecessary, teaching the dps to "take it easy" without actually telling them to take it easy, is a good lesson - especially when you can get reported if you actually say anything.
It's a good example of "show, don't tell": you, the DPS, did a mistake and the tank isn't taking it (who knows, they might've slipped it by mistake, it can happen quite often, especially during mass pulls), and dps is taking damage because of a mistake. You learned your lesson: wait before bursting or die because you couldn't wait

Sadly, it doesn't work this way and you, the tank, can get punished for a mistake the dps made. Heck, -I- was the one who got punished for reporting the dps who overpulled, despite I was in the right all along (quite literally the dps pulled a boss before I got the aggro, and -I- was punished and kicked and was basically told "I was wrong, they were right", ).

Oh well, life is never fair.

[MaxCarnage]

I get someone pulling for you is annoying. Especially if they don't pull the mobs to you as a tank, or if they just kite them around in panic. And especially if there is a wipe over it.

I'm all in support of reeming the person out and kicking them.

What I can't get behind is actively griefing your party on a power trip because you have Main Character syndrome and can't handle not being in complete control.

[Rehayem]

When I was a wee sprout learning to tank, I never even had that thought to begin with. You know what I did? I went and aggro'd mobs back, simple as that. Now that I main tank, I still have people aggroing first, does it bother me? Absolutely not, because it's still my job to aggro all the mobs off of people so they don't die. That and it makes the dungeon faster.

I've had plenty of tanks get upset with me and others for pulling first, them switching off their stance and just standing, doing nothing. You know what's that called? Sabotage. We just kick those players out if they want to be so toxic.

[Puc]

If I'm tanking, then that means I'M tanking, if you want to tank then you can go ahead and tank, doesn't even matter to me if I get kicked since I have fast queue times. DPS need to stay in their place just like healers. If the healer wants to heal the dps then by all means go right on and get the next mob while i turn off my stance and dps more.

[KatiaRelanah]

You mean the hall of the novice that has a part where the allies have aggro before the tank and hence they pulled?

Besides nothing there mentions that a tank has to pull but that they have to grab enmity from the party doesn't matter who has it, quoting "yer job is to soak up the pain an keep yer mates safe" nothing about pulling is said. "You pull you tank" is not only a bad mentality but also MPK with extra steps and MPK is against the TOS (and one could argue that is lethargic gameplay too)

I'll also point out with Duty Support, the AI tank will move in and take aggro only after YOU pull (obviously, the whole point is to "play at your own pace" after all), and while I've only used it like 3 times, in my experience the handful of times I've pulled a second mob that's close by they'll take aggro on that stuff, too.

I wouldn't try to W2W with AI, for myriad reasons (AI DPS output being horrible, AI healers being lobotomized and not being able to keep up with enemy DPS, etc.), but from my tiny anecdotal sample size as described above, at least, it's obvious that the programmers setting up duty support grasped that the tank's first priority is to pick up the aggro and make sure no bad guys are attacking the good guys, even if they aren't themselves the ones provoking the bad guys.

All this to say that this just emphasizes that the game design is based on Tank reacting to what's going on in the dungeon, not singlehandedly dictating the dungeon's pace and level of intensity.

Edit: just hopping back like 10 pages, I see people already brought up DS, both "sides" claiming in some capacity that it "proved" their case.

Idk imma go with what I said above, in that it supports/proves tank's job is to manage aggro. Even the braindead support AI understands/does this.

[Chloe_Saunders]

I feel a bit eh on the topic, on one hand it can be really desrespectfull to go grap things all over the place while your tank is stressed out on small sizes at low levels, or maybe when I'm tanking Im graping a drink for two seconds and someone pulls. I don't say anything about it, and i do go grap the mops off them however in the back of my head I'm like I really should let them handle it if they want to so bad. That just how I feel, on both healer and tank playing through dungeons. Maybe im a horrible person, but i do think the you pull you tank mentality is called for sometimes. Sometimes its accidental or to not waste their dps that I'm okay with but sometimes its just..

[KatiaRelanah]

I feel a bit eh on the topic, on one hand it can be really desrespectfull to go grap things all over the place while your tank is stressed out on small sizes at low levels, or maybe when I'm tanking Im graping a drink for two seconds and someone pulls. I don't say anything about it, and i do go grap the mops off them however in the back of my head I'm like I really should let them handle it if they want to so bad. That just how I feel, on both healer and tank playing through dungeons. Maybe im a horrible person, but i do think the you pull you tank mentality is called for sometimes. Sometimes its accidental or to not waste their dps that I'm okay with but sometimes its just..

At some point, though, the "what if [player] isn't comfortable with the content" mentality or justification intersects with the "everybody in the public duty should at least be comfortable with x/100 pace or intensity".

If tank has "tanxiety" and doesn't feel confident in pushing harder, well I mean sorry, but you've entered a public game setting where everyone else (most critically, healer) might feel they know better. It's not everyone else's job to not perform as optimally as they can/their kit allows (DPS having as many mobs as possible to make AoE attacks as efficient as possible; healer only healing to keep people alive and otherwise DPSing to accelerate the clear, etc.) because of your fears. It IS your job to hold aggro, though. Whether you did the pull or not. It'd be like ignoring adds in a boss fight (where it matters and you can't DPS down the boss anyways before it matters) because "well I didn't spawn them!", no, your role, your job, is to see the whole field and make sure nothing is attacking your squishy teammates, regardless of why that thing is attacking them.

If healer feels/knows, because of their toolkit at that level/the layout of the dungeon, that they can keep up with even W2W, then it becomes a 1v1 battle of desires between healer and tank. Add in the DPSs' vote and, hey, majority rules.

If you're that critically concerned about your ability to keep up, then you can communicate as much. Up until you bother to do so, I will assume you will play your role as a tank and take aggro, no matter why the mobs are attacking. If you die because healer can't keep up after all (due to their personal ability, level sync skill limitations, etc.), then you've learned you can't play at that accelerated pace. Okay, noted, reset and try again. If you DON'T die, then you learn, even if you're dragged kicking and screaming through the lesson, that you can take more aggro than you thought.

If you don't like 3 other players getting their own decision/input on how fast the dungeon is run, you can play Duty Support (where you by definition set the pace of AI) or make a PF where from the outset you make it clear YOU are the boss.