Faith, Dynamis, Aether, Summoning

[Eisi]

They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.

What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

[Cleretic]

What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

There have been some moments in the game where dynamis probably was active now that we look back on it; probably the clearest example is the Totentantz in the Dancer questline, but there's a few more places where it's a not-unreasonable thing to bring up. It's just that the OP's example of primals is... not that.

[Eisi]

To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

[Cleretic]

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated. Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

[Zero-ELEC]

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

The ancients cannot manipulate or be manipulated by akasa/dynamis as they are too aetherically dense, but they still feel emotions, which are transmitted through akasa. Hermes, being depressed Entelechies like Meteion, and the Elpis bloom, can interact with akasa by being aetherically thin.

Creation magic is not the opposite of akasa, it is just aetherial manipulation. Aetherial manipulation can and is affected by emotions, as these inform the usage of aether. Emotions, indeed, do not hamper magic, and can even amplify.

Everything physical that we know of, with the exception of the beings and locations in Ultima Thule, is made of aether. Physical aether, spiritual aether, and memory aether are the building blocks of life. Even rocks are made of aether as far as we know. Perhaps there are other types of stars out there that work differently but even the Dragonstar was seemingly made of aether.

Things in Ultima Thule work less literally, being at the edge of existence in a mass of concentrated akasa. It's the reason Shtola can see normally there, she is not using aethersight to see. The only reason the Scions survive being there, and indeed why there is a "there" to begin with, is because of Thancred's will, which eventually is cemented with hope.

My personal view is that when you are in Ultima Thule and you fight things, you do so like normal, by swinging your sword and doing magic and shooting things like normal, because you expect it to work because the place does not run on physical logic.


Mind, with all this said, that I haven't done the tribal quests in Ultima Thule, so maybe there's some other explanation there to all of this, but this is my understanding of how it all works.

[Eisi]

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

Thank u!

Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

So the idea is if you feel enough you can still manipulate Dynamis even if you are too aether dense? Are irl neuroatypical people actually more emotional? Or depressed people?

Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

I mean the higher your potential to manipulate aether, the more limited your potential to manipulate Dynamis and vice versa, is that true? That's what I meant, creation magic is the opposite of dynamis manipulation ability in that sense that you can't have both maxed out, one limits the other.

Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

So a believer would create a Dynamis primal if the medium was different! So if I give u a bunch of dynamis crystals for example.

Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated.

So we are breathing in dynamis and turn it into aetherial air by believing it to be able to sustain us or am I wrong? Isn't that basically creation magic but with dynamis? Except that dynamis can form aether but not the other way around?

Is the universe a sea of dynamis in which stars of aether are born? Isn't there a galactic lifestream as well? With memories and kinda natural blueprints? Would that not make a whole lot of sense if that brought forth new stars through dynamis?

Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

Yeah that makes sense, dynamis can be anything if u feel it right.

However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

I care a lot, because I love needlessly speculating, but maybe Dynamis shouldn't return and be forgotten. I mean at the end of the day nobody ever really knew or cared about it on Hydaelyn either, so it can't be too impactful of a thing.

However the final days was dynamis waves wasn't it? pretty big deal, maybe someone else finds a use for dynamis now that a highway to UT exists? Or even just by opening a space portal!

Hope it's not annoying! Thanks for the good answers ♥

[Lyth]

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

The Aether limitation has to do with the fact that Dynamis itself is more subtle than Aether. As an analogy, in our own world, physics describes four fundamental forces - Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear and Weak Nuclear forces. Each of these are influenced by the scale that you're looking at. So while the Strong Nuclear Force may be much more powerful on a subatomic level, it might appear insignificant when you're talking about physical objects that we see in our day to day lives (which are dominated by Gravity and Electromagnetism). Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force). But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly. However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

[SannaR]

I really don't like Shinryu as when I originally went through it I thought that everyone else who lay there dying would have been counted as part of they who summoned. I'm not sure why I didn't figure that those who had been praying to Rhalgr were just the fuel. Or that it doesn't really take much on the emotional side since both Titan and Ifrit get summoned with just 2-3 of their followers when Garuda is trying to stave off her death after we defeated her. I guess I never equated the strength of the current summon of whatever primal was really only reliant on the amount of aether used up and that whatever filled in the faith/prayer aspect didn't really matter or how much of it got put in.

Edit: I did mean the Shiva summoning mid falling one when I mentioned Ysayle.

[Eisi]

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

Ok I understand!

So Aetherys has Dynamis and Aether. However there is so much aether that dynamis interactions can almost not happen. Entelechies, which are themselves aetherial beings, not made of dynamis, are an exception, they, through some sort of interaction with ambient dynamis change their aetherial composition.

So:

Elpis flower >>>(change in ambient dynamis by way of change in ambient emotion)>>> Color change.

So the change in dynamis is the same wherever you go, it's just that in aether-rich environments that usually doesn't affect anything did I get that right? It's not that Dynamis is less volatile on Etheirys or that the beings on Etheirys are less capable of influencing it or anything, it simply doesn't get to itself then influence anything outside of entelechies.

The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

And it doesn't matter how aetherially dense we are right? Ultima Thule will react the same way even if we were Unsundered.

Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force).

Oh, ok I didn't understand it then. So my new understanding that would follow from this is then that the emotions that influence ambient dynamis are still there, but in aetherially dense people they get blocked by their aether kinda. So that the Dynamis doesn't get affected.

But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly.

I so don't understand this. Every time I think I got it something comes up that throws me off again. So Hermes can't influence Dynamis, but didn't the Elpis flowers change color for him? He must have influenced dynamis with his emotions. Subconsciously, sure, but he could do it! Just like us, no?

However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

Makes sense, but just being low in aether doesn't make you an entelechy am I right?

On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

That would be cool! I kinda don't wanna see Dynamis dropped tbh.

As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

I have a hard time with a concept that is deliberately designed to be vague, it seems like it's an asspull tool tbh and that's why it doesn't have clear rules and limitations.

I like characters and themes and emotions, those are all allowed to be contradictory and confusing if they resonate well. But a fictional energy form with massive and very obvious effects I'd like to be more clearly defined personally.

[JepMZ]

I know there's a specific sidequest with a viera boy that praying to a crystal charm was a form of dynamis.but we already knowing summoning is just the derivative of Ancient ones' creation magic, it would be devoid of dynamis involvement since the ancients are already established to not be capable to sense or use them.