Faith, Dynamis, Aether, Summoning

[SannaR]

I think the struggle with dynamis for a lot of lore-talkers is that we really like dealing in concrete Facts And Evidence, and dynamis... sorta by nature doesn't do that. Even in-universe it's intended to be a reference to dark matter and energy; 'we know it's there and that's about it'. In some ways it's almost emblematic of why lore-talking around this game can often feel kinda fruitless; ever since Heavensward it's been more character-focused storytelling rather than events or facts, so talking about those events and facts feels like it's missing the point... and then dynamis comes in with the literal purpose of 'doing whatever feels right even if it doesn't make a lot of sense at the time'. I don't blame people who get invested in the worldbuilding for not liking dynamis, because its main purpose is to enforce dramatic logic over actual logic, and then people like to apply that all over the place despite it only really taking that role in a small handful of places/times.

That means things like the 'primals are dynamis' and 'LBs are dynamis' theories get much more empassioned rebuttals than if someone was just... y'know, normally wrong. Because it's an active rejection of the facts that we do have, which some of us have really put effort into learning and being able to cite, in favor of nothing more than 'this feels better'.

I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantify the emotional part of the equation?

[MikkoAkure]

I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantity the emotional part of the equation?

Enkidu was summoned when Gilgamesh was thinking about his friend while surrounded by crystals. In Yotsuyu's case, she was also surrounded by crystals, while invoking the power of the moon and holding a relic specific to Tsukuyomi as a deity. Neither instance contradicts what we already knew about summoning and both involve focusing on a specific image in the presence of great amounts of aether. Ysayle even mentions requiring aether to transform and steals some from the Gnath's cache.

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all. Zodiark and Hydaelyn are said to be the oldest and most powerful primals and both are just extremely large-scale summonings performed by beings that normally can't handle dynamis.

It's also difficult to reconcile dynamis with summonings when it's already been established that primals are pure aether that require more aether and that overwhelming aether cannot interact with dynamis. Then there's the Gnath, who don't have emotions at all, but are still capable of summoning Ravana.

[Eisi]

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all.

Or did they?

[Cleretic]

Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning.

Actually I can explain those pretty immediately and easily; it is still faith shaping the summoning, it's just a different sort of faith.

-Enkidu was summoned accidentally by Gilgamesh in a joke questline, so we're already in a weird loose situation even if Hilidbrand does play hilariously lore-accurately. But Gilgamesh did have faith in Enkidu, as a friend. He genuinely believes that Enkidu is out there somewhere and that they'll reunite someday. Enkidu was also summoned with an actual box of crystals, so we know the power source; it wasn't much, but Enkidu also wasn't much of a primal.

-Ysayle had faith in her own extremely misguided worldview and self-image; Shiva was essentially being summoned as Ysayle's idealized self. You could, in fact, argue that she'd accidentally reverse-engineered the Ancient's Weird Special Combat Forms. This faith isn't quite as strong for her final summoning against the flagship, but at that state she may have also developed a more conventional primal-summoning; her belief in the historical Shiva was always there, and is now taking the stage more than the notion that it's her. They also actually made a point that she only Primals Up into Shiva in areas with naturally high aether resources; usually natural crystal outcroppings. Again this is also a little different for the flagship battle, but there she calls on the Crystal of Light to provide that aether for her.

-Tsukuyomi is indeed an interesting one, but not because it can't have happened by the rules we know; instead, it's more because we don't really know Yotsuyu very well. She might be a woman of faith; it never really came up. But it's also notable that this was a primal who was so inaccurate to the collective image of the figure that it came up in the lore; Tsukuyomi's depicted as very calm, and... well, as a guy, so obviously Yotsuyu was not holding very close to that myth. My general vibe is that Tsukuyomi formed not because of Yotsuyu's faith in the deity per se, but her faith in herself, that happened to form into something Tsukuyomi-esque because of her own associations and the mirror that provided all the aether. I'd compare Tsukuyomi to Shinryu in a sense; not formed out of faith per se so much as stalwart conviction, a faith in yourself and your goals, so as a result the physical form was almost incidental and just informed by the summoner's personal associations. Yotsuyu got Tsukuyomi because of the mirror (and maybe some personal associations with death or the moon), Ilberd got Shinryu because of the dragon's eyes and probably his memory of Bahamut.

Faith can take many forms, and primals actually do a great job of showing that, especially in Heavensward; remember that Alexander was formed not out of faith in a god, but faith that this impossible blueprint could totally work.

Honestly, I don't see what you don't see that says these summons were somehow impossible without some Mystery Energy that, in all honesty, wouldn't have provided anything in these cases anyway.

Or did they?

They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.

[Eisi]

They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.

What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

[Cleretic]

What does that mean to use and manipulate Dynamis? Are the sundered doing that?

To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

There have been some moments in the game where dynamis probably was active now that we look back on it; probably the clearest example is the Totentantz in the Dancer questline, but there's a few more places where it's a not-unreasonable thing to bring up. It's just that the OP's example of primals is... not that.

[Eisi]

To a degree, yes, but not in the ways a lot of people say. The Ancients were too aetherically beefy to actually be able to manipulate dynamis, or to be manipulated by it--you could see this in how their 'creation magic' was the thing that broke, because they were actually immune, but their creations weren't. The elpis flower/the Heartbloom being largely inert in Elpis itself but reactive in the sundered world is the clearest example that yes, dynamis is being manipulated in the sundered world, just subconsciously.

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

[Cleretic]

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated. Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

[Eisi]

Okay this is gonna get complicated but I'm gonna try.

Thank u!

Hermes was some level of emotionally or neurologically atypical; probably depressed, but we can't exactly diagnose him. His extreme situation let him get it to actually express something different, but that is very clearly an unusual situation that wasn't happening very often, and likely didn't require much dynamis manipulation in the first place.

So the idea is if you feel enough you can still manipulate Dynamis even if you are too aether dense? Are irl neuroatypical people actually more emotional? Or depressed people?

Creation magic is not the opposite to dynamis, but Ancient creation magic was making things that were less dense in aether than their creators. The same is also true of sundered people.

I mean the higher your potential to manipulate aether, the more limited your potential to manipulate Dynamis and vice versa, is that true? That's what I meant, creation magic is the opposite of dynamis manipulation ability in that sense that you can't have both maxed out, one limits the other.

Creation magic is magic, yes; it's specifically probably a very aether-intensive form of magic compared to the forms we know. You're right that emotions don't hamper magic, but in some cases they go along with it; you're not exactly going to find someone who's highly desperate or religiously devout who's not also fairly emotional about those things.

So a believer would create a Dynamis primal if the medium was different! So if I give u a bunch of dynamis crystals for example.

Ultima Thule is a space completely shaped to essentially run on dynamis instead of aether; it's hard to say how much of it was there before us versus how much was shaped for our needs, but my read is it was probably already there. We're running on aether biologically when we're there, but dynamis is heavy enough there to be more easily manipulated.

So we are breathing in dynamis and turn it into aetherial air by believing it to be able to sustain us or am I wrong? Isn't that basically creation magic but with dynamis? Except that dynamis can form aether but not the other way around?

Is the universe a sea of dynamis in which stars of aether are born? Isn't there a galactic lifestream as well? With memories and kinda natural blueprints? Would that not make a whole lot of sense if that brought forth new stars through dynamis?

Whether or not you're whacking that hypothetical dragon with dynamis or aether probably depends on what combat style you're using exactly, because some jobs are said to pull heavily from the world around them so they'd probably be pulling from dynamis (i.e. BLM), while others are mostly running internally so they're probably not doing anything too differently (i.e. Monk). One thing I can say is that the matter there is roughly compatible with aetherically-based matter, because the Omicron tribe questline shows that cooking, including with a mixture of Ultima Thule and Etheirys ingredients, works completely fine.

Yeah that makes sense, dynamis can be anything if u feel it right.

However, Ultima Thule is ultimately the land where terrestrial science and logic doesn't apply, so any of these really specific questions both weren't answered and don't really matter in the first place. Ultima Thule works like it looks like Ultima Thule works, and doesn't work like, say, Thavnair works; any more specific than that is guesswork into irrelevant minutia.

I care a lot, because I love needlessly speculating, but maybe Dynamis shouldn't return and be forgotten. I mean at the end of the day nobody ever really knew or cared about it on Hydaelyn either, so it can't be too impactful of a thing.

However the final days was dynamis waves wasn't it? pretty big deal, maybe someone else finds a use for dynamis now that a highway to UT exists? Or even just by opening a space portal!

Hope it's not annoying! Thanks for the good answers ♥

[Zero-ELEC]

Doctor Hermes was less aetherially dense I assume than the other ancients? Cause he had the Elpis flower react.

So creation magic is kind of the opposite of dynamis manipulation am I getting that right? Basically magic in general?

Beings that are not dense in aether can manipulate dynamis and they do so with their emotions.

And on the other end of the spectrum beings that are aether-rich can manipulate aether via creation magic which is not emotions, but something else, I don't know what, it's magic. The desperation/prayer whatever that leads to summonings is coincidental, emotions certainly don't hamper magic.

Not everything physical is aether, right? So the creatures in Ultima Thule for example are just dynamis and can of themselves also influence dynamis and also interact with aetherial beings like us. Are we even made of aether in UT? Or do we get a dynamis body after Thancred's sacrifice?

So when we fight let's say a Stellar Dragon in UT, we aren't actually physically fighting it, we are manipulating some dynamis into no longer expressing in a hostile way which is substituted by physical form. In fact the form of UT itself is just a substitute for us to make sense of it rationally, does that make sense?

I don't understand anything about the story btw.

The ancients cannot manipulate or be manipulated by akasa/dynamis as they are too aetherically dense, but they still feel emotions, which are transmitted through akasa. Hermes, being depressed Entelechies like Meteion, and the Elpis bloom, can interact with akasa by being aetherically thin.

Creation magic is not the opposite of akasa, it is just aetherial manipulation. Aetherial manipulation can and is affected by emotions, as these inform the usage of aether. Emotions, indeed, do not hamper magic, and can even amplify.

Everything physical that we know of, with the exception of the beings and locations in Ultima Thule, is made of aether. Physical aether, spiritual aether, and memory aether are the building blocks of life. Even rocks are made of aether as far as we know. Perhaps there are other types of stars out there that work differently but even the Dragonstar was seemingly made of aether.

Things in Ultima Thule work less literally, being at the edge of existence in a mass of concentrated akasa. It's the reason Shtola can see normally there, she is not using aethersight to see. The only reason the Scions survive being there, and indeed why there is a "there" to begin with, is because of Thancred's will, which eventually is cemented with hope.

My personal view is that when you are in Ultima Thule and you fight things, you do so like normal, by swinging your sword and doing magic and shooting things like normal, because you expect it to work because the place does not run on physical logic.


Mind, with all this said, that I haven't done the tribal quests in Ultima Thule, so maybe there's some other explanation there to all of this, but this is my understanding of how it all works.