Why do people avoid getting better at the game?

[R041]

I just want to bump these posts, because they were almost completely ignored - Yet did exactly what was asked of this thread.
If anyone else wants to continue this challenge, that would be a fun watch. I'd like to see how this challenge works in ARR-HW as well.

I took this to PF and got random players to try out the challenge and see if it's possible because I was also curious to see if you can clear it with a 1 tank, 1 healer that can't heal, and 2 DPS. The goal was "Can we clear the dungeon with a healer that doesn't heal in the duty?" The answer - yes, it's possible to clear the duty with a healer that doesn't heal. It was really chaotic, but all of us had a lot of fun. We just treated the whole experience like a deep dungeon encounter and had time to try out other combinations as well.

It's possible to clear the The Dead Ends without a healer healing in bosses or in mobs with PLD/WAR/DRK. All pulls were wall to wall. I have yet to test GNB because it was super late after we did the pulls and called it a night.

The party compositions used were:
PLD/AST/BLM/SMN
WAR/SCH/DNC/RDM
DRK/SGE/BLM/RPR

Limitations were set as we went along since it wasn't mentioned in detail:
1. Healers cannot use skills that gives raw HP / shield
2. Healers cannot raise
3. WHM cannot use Assize even though it does damage (because it gives AoE healing)
4. SCH cannot use fairy
5. SGE cannot use Kardia
6. DPS (if applicable) can only raise 2 times per boss

With these limitations, healers are very gimped DPS. Since they cannot heal, AST just had card buffs and malefic/gravity spam. SCH cannot use Fey Illumination or Dissipation for Energy Drain. SGE just had phlegma balls. After we discussed and tried the healers, we came to the conclusion that out of all the healers, WHM/SCH are the strongest healers in this scenario. WHM had Holy to make mobs easier. SCH ended up being the strongest because of Expedient was allowed for being a purely mitigation skill. It acted as a replacement for a DPS slot's mitigation skill & Chain Strategem.

Funnily enough, most of us were healer mains, so when we flexed on other roles, we weren't super amazing at them. There was quite a learning curve, but it worked out.

PLD was doable, but was a bit rough. We took a lot of avoidable damage. I messed up wasting a mitigation at one point and couldn't pull the second wall-to-wall without dying on my first run through due to it. That led to some interesting sleep strategies being discussed... There was also a moment where I just screwed up on the Final Boss which prevented us from getting the clear (unsurprisingly was due to taking a lot of avoidable damage because I brain farted twice in a row lol). We had 2 wipes total. Other than those mishaps, it wasn't that bad. Including the wipes and running back, it took roughly 27~28 minutes. If you want to see a first person perspective on the PLD run, I can upload a video of how it went. Props to the Black Mage who was brave enough to participate in this challenge and was their second time running The Dead Ends (their first time being the MSQ). We played bad enough that it was pretty much a DF encounter. Surprised with much we can get away with using this party too. XD


WAR had no issues. We cleared it in 16 minutes in one go. The party composition was really strong too, to the point where we decided to see how far we can push a tank with the next party composition... I'll have to upload a video of this one later.

DRK... hoo boy. Compared to PLD & WAR, this one was so scuffed. xD So while we did clear this without a healer healing in any wall-to-wall pull and without healing during boss fights, it was a lot more strict compared to PLD/WAR since they had recovery abilities and DRK didn't. Our DRK couldn't survive without Living Dead in wall-to-wall pulls (and also because of me derping & causing wipes), BUT it is clearable without a healer, funnily enough. This party composition didn't have much sustain, if any, so we had to kill the Final Boss before the Double "Warm Glow" mechanic. It's basically a soft DPS check at that point. It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of shenanigans happening in the dungeon (I haven't touched BLM since Lv 80 in PvE as I purely leveled BLM to lv 90 through PvP, so I was basically relearning the rotation in that dungeon and dropping Enochian left and right LMAO). We had to take turns with our mitigations, and it turns out we were lacking just a bit more HP to clear it with our skill level -- but that was solved with HP potions -- yes, the items with a cooldown that you usually use when your healer is either dead or you're doing deep dungeon content. Turns out DRK really didn't need a healer to make things work. The entire run, if we include every wipe and running back + learning when to best mitigate + me messing up my BLM rotation, took around 67 minutes. If we just include the wall-to-walls + the pull where we killed the Final Boss (3 min boss fight), it took around 28 minutes.

An important thing to note, it is still doable without a healer healing and taking up a party slot. It only made me realize the effects of having a 3rd DPS more strongly here -- because a 3rd DPS could have given us more mitigation and made the "DPS check" gone by a lot smoother than what the healer that didn't heal could have done here.... which unfortunately only proves that healers are meant to raise the maximum survival threshold of the party, but the party doesn't necessarily need a healer healing to clear the dungeon - as is the case compared to ARR dungeons where you just simply can't outheal the damage due to how integral a healer is. In other words... healers really have became somewhat superfluous in terms of being necessary for a clear, at least for this dungeon.

Here you go I synced and solo'd The Burn as WAR. Even the darling of SB dungeon difficulty is a former shadow of itself.

Full disclosure I wiped 3 times:
1. A careless raw intuition mistake on a double trash mob pull
2. And 2 times to figuring out how the hell to survive the add phase during the final boss because I couldn't meet the DPS check as solo WAR. Something that wouldn't have happened if I had even one more person doing something.

What ends up happening is you end up encased in ice and the boss starts casting a TB on you. Kind of cruel.

If this is soloable I'm sure every dungeon past this is too unless there's some incredibly cheap mechanic that forces multiple people being alive.

I just wished the games core design was more fun than this. We always have to go looking for scraps of difficulty here and there. And I don't want savage or Extreme level difficulty everywhere either. Just midcore is fine. If everything was around the difficulty level of original CLL I would be happy.

I even made several mistakes too, I didn't have to be perfect. For example during the first boss I had to reply to an email so I just end up standing in AOE's by accident and in the second boss I got rolled into the firewall for not paying attention to the carts.

Here is the video of the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgp...Aries%27Corner

[Rilifane]

Impressive person no 1.

Impressive person no2

Hats off to you two!
Just for the extra time and effort you went through to prove a point many others have already known to be true. I've ran plenty of 1tank/ 3dps dungeons but the counterargument is always "You just did it with your uber static of pro raiders, that doesn't count!" and nobody believes otherwise.
Yet here we are, no uber pro raider static. Just regular people messing around and trying to see what they can get away with. And we can clearly get away with ditching healers. In Dead Ends, the most difficult one of the level 90 dungeons. That's even a lot of extra restrictions put in for clearing Dead Ends.
Even The Burn eventually fell. And now imagine doing it with just no healer but a regular light party. Probably a breeze.

[Kolaina]

So much bitter and salt lol.

You literally walk into a game where a good amount of content specifically cater to those players ... (I mean ... isn't that exactly the whole reason you are complaining!?) and then ... boldly declare this isn't the game for them!.

It wasn’t always catered to these poor skilled players. You could be knocked out of the fight for the duration of titan. You had to know what the names of skills were as the coin collector had no telegraphs. Proper rotations to both maximize dps and conserve tp.

The game only changed to become accessible due to the low skill floor of the new generation of players.

“Walk into a game”. I’ll tell you, this is not the same game I walked into. It panders to the super casual Limsa afkers just in case they decide to do something

[Velvet_Lunarfang]

This is literally that game for them. To BS around and play casually. And screw up mechanics if need be. That’s why the ToS is as protective of newbies as it is. SE likes the casual crowd and the money they bring in.

You have other games you can go hardcore in and play to a high degree of skill. Diablo 4 has free beta weekend now. Path of Exile is also quite rewarding to high skill play, and has a built in ladder so you can waggle your epeen around, if it’s so important to be so good.

Play them on hardcore mode to your hearts content, where 1 mistake deletes your character entirely. It’s fun, if not stressful.

There is literally no point to being very very good or having BiS in this game outside of personal accomplishment because once you have it, there is no super secret ultra hard content requiring such gear.

this is NOT the game for them. If you are holding other's down because you refuse to get better then that is the problem. Casulization is a cancer that needs to be cut out. You can't make a great game by catering to some people who refuse to actually improve. Tired of hearing excuses for people NOT wanting to get better. If you mess up I WILL call you out on it. Your mistake will cause everyone else to suffer because of someone lack of knowledge in game or lack of skill. You want to play a MMO then learn to play it. You want to hang out to chat all day then find a online chatroom and chat. Casual playstyle has always ruined someone and F them for ruining it. Time for people to get thick skinned and grow a backbone if they can't handle some critique. If you are at work and act that way and can't pull your weight you will get called out same here. Stop holding other's down and think that other people actually want to progress and be good not hold your hand.

[Velvet_Lunarfang]

So much bitter and salt lol.

You literally walk into a game where a good amount of content specifically cater to those players ... (I mean ... isn't that exactly the whole reason you are complaining!?) and then ... boldly declare this isn't the game for them!

Who are you, looking at your avatar I don't think you're Yoshi-P.



And they can say the same thing to you, and when it comes down to number, I don't think the math will favor you pal.

I think the math does favor me. You just upset I call casuals filthy casuals that pander for help. Then when they fail miserably then get laughed at they deserve it. People who play casual don't deserve to be praised. You get better or you get dropped off like filth that's it. Casual gamers are a cancer to skilled people. You want us to help you every step of the way so you can go RP or other nonsense. I went and practiced ever single day to know my job and perfect it instead of wasting time. If casuals just want to stand around all day and do nothing get a Nintendo Switch and go play animal crossing that is your skill level. As for me I will keep perfecting my skill use for all my jobs so I can be the best at all content

[Atelier-Bagur]

I just want to bump these posts, because they were almost completely ignored - Yet did exactly what was asked of this thread.
If anyone else wants to continue this challenge, that would be a fun watch. I'd like to see how this challenge works in ARR-HW as well.

My only issue with this is that the idea doesnt sound fun? Because it sounds like you still had a wipe or two? I guess if you've fine tune the runs then you can clear the content perfectly and in record time than parties that naturally heal then this even more proves your point.

One thing though, people already doing this just aggravates me with the current class design even more. In no way am I healer main and I'm a huge lover of tanks as I mainly play one. But the fact that you can just Rambo through content like this with your mitigations and without a healer really drives me up the wall with how bad the trinity is treated in this game. DPS is king and it shows. It should've never gotten this bad. Healers should be able to rely on their toolkits 24/7, tanks should have to maintain aggro while relying their mitigations to help the healer and not the other way around.

If we're going to pretend that we have a tank, a healer and a dps role then this game needs to strictly adhere to that design. Otherwise may as well do away with the system and do what Variant Dungeons do and just give us special abilities to fill your job's weaknesses.

[Raven2014]

It wasn’t always catered to these poor skilled players. You could be knocked out of the fight for the duration of titan.

And I gonna maintain my opinion the reasons the 2.0 early trial were perceived as difficulty were because how fresh the player base then. The two who only had play the game back then is not the same thing as the two who have been playing the game for a whole 10 years. Maybe the new trials are indeed easier, but to nowhere the decree people are making them out to be.

Also I find it a bit unfair people keep complaining about the older type of content getting easier, yet fail to credit the fact savage has been consistently getting harder. Also 2.0 and 3.0 didn't have Ultimate, which is a content especially created to cater to people who want more challenge. So claiming the game only cater to casual at the very least - bad faith.

FF14 is said to be a theme park game, so it tries to give a piece of the cake to everyone. I think you guys just not happy with your own share and want the majority of the cake, and Yoshi just says "no".

“Walk into a game”. I’ll tell you, this is not the same game I walked into. It panders to the super casual Limsa afkers just in case they decide to do something

Serious question, do you guys have a better example then the Limsa AFkers? It does make me wonder if you had played other MMO and how long you did. Plenty of people hanging around the place is to show off their ultimate weapon which you know ... kinda need to play to get those. Back in my WoW day, I was in a raiding guild that was part of the US top 10. Do you know where most of us are whenever we're not in raid? Stormwind or Origammar. Even if you play an Asian MMO in which you would want to turn it into a job of souless grinding, the main cities will always busting of people standing around and chatting.

People hanging around social gathering spot has always been a thing in all MMO for as old as the gerne itself, with no exception regarding people background or skill level. Keep using it as your beating stick just show how shallow the argument is.

[Vahlnir]

this is NOT the game for them. If you are holding other's down because you refuse to get better then that is the problem. Casulization is a cancer that needs to be cut out. You can't make a great game by catering to some people who refuse to actually improve. Tired of hearing excuses for people NOT wanting to get better. If you mess up I WILL call you out on it. Your mistake will cause everyone else to suffer because of someone lack of knowledge in game or lack of skill. You want to play a MMO then learn to play it. You want to hang out to chat all day then find a online chatroom and chat. Casual playstyle has always ruined someone and F them for ruining it. Time for people to get thick skinned and grow a backbone if they can't handle some critique. If you are at work and act that way and can't pull your weight you will get called out same here. Stop holding other's down and think that other people actually want to progress and be good not hold your hand.

I'm all for personal improvement, but I feel that you are incorrect. This IS the game for them. However, I do think that the game is becoming less and less for people like me, which is another subject entirely. Either way I think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill at this point. This game has never been hardcore or even remotely difficult outside of higher end content, in my opinion. It is a casual MMO by design.

[Shinkuno]

And I gonna maintain my opinion the reasons the 2.0 early trial were perceived as difficulty were because how fresh the player base then. The two who only had play the game back then is not the same thing as the two who have been playing the game for a whole 10 years. Maybe the new trials are indeed easier, but to nowhere the decree people are making them out to be.

Also I find it a bit unfair people keep complaining about the older type of content getting easier, yet fail to credit the fact savage has been consistently getting harder. Also 2.0 and 3.0 didn't have Ultimate, which is a content especially created to cater to people who want more challenge. So claiming the game only cater to casual at the very least - bad faith.

FF14 is said to be a theme park game, so it tries to give a piece of the cake to everyone. I think you guys just not happy with your own share and want the majority of the cake, and Yoshi just says "no".



Serious question, do you guys have a better example then the Limsa AFkers? It does make me wonder if you had played other MMO and how long you did. Plenty of people hanging around the place is to show off their ultimate weapon which you know ... kinda need to play to get those. Back in my WoW day, I was in a raiding guild that was part of the US top 10. Do you know where most of us are whenever we're not in raid? Stormwind or Origammar. Even if you play an Asian MMO in which you would want to turn it into a job of souless grinding, the main cities will always busting of people standing around and chatting.

People hanging around social gathering spot has always been a thing in all MMO for as old as the gerne itself, with no exception regarding people background or skill level. Keep using it as your beating stick just show how shallow the argument is.

You are in big denial if you think even just half the people that you see dwelling in limsa 20 hours a day have gotten their ultimate weapon legitimately

[Tigore]

this is NOT the game for them. If you are holding other's down because you refuse to get better then that is the problem. Casulization is a cancer that needs to be cut out. You can't make a great game by catering to some people who refuse to actually improve. Tired of hearing excuses for people NOT wanting to get better. If you mess up I WILL call you out on it. Your mistake will cause everyone else to suffer because of someone lack of knowledge in game or lack of skill. You want to play a MMO then learn to play it. You want to hang out to chat all day then find a online chatroom and chat. Casual playstyle has always ruined someone and F them for ruining it. Time for people to get thick skinned and grow a backbone if they can't handle some critique. If you are at work and act that way and can't pull your weight you will get called out same here. Stop holding other's down and think that other people actually want to progress and be good not hold your hand.

This is getting too far. I am trying to see what baseline difficulty would be agreed upon and we are back to this arguing. I can agree that combative beginners never listening is quite bad, but to say casual gaming is cancer? Do you really mean that? Especially when the stats are expected to be low for Savage and Ultimate participation?

At some point, the veterans will need to take a break, so new players are needed to keep the flow going. I have taken year breaks a couple times despite starting around Heavensward.

The spells being changed to be easier is also a strange thing for MMOs. We want something new every expansion and we already have full spell bars in comparison. I remember having 3 versions of Aero Dots to keep up as WHM back then. Pretty much replaced with Afflatus Solace / Rapture and Misery now. Whether this is right or not is up in the air for discussion if players should always expect new spell changes every expansion.

As for the Switch being a counter argument for easy ... Didn't we just get Metroid Prime Remaster released there for a decent challenge that had a lot of physical copies sold out?