What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kazhar]

It's been a long time since I played through FFIX. All I really remember about it is I don't like Zidane (In fact, I'd say I border on hating him). Vivi, Garnet, Amarant, and Steiner are my favorite characters. At least from the main party. Blank, Beatrix, Dr. Tott, and Cid from the side bar.

Iirc, my favorite thing about IX's story is the whole Terra consuming other planets and the history behind it inside of that one dungeon with the talking faces and the airship/drone boss. I'd say IX has a lot of good setup, great music, great characters, but I always sorta felt like its follow through was lacking. And I absolutely hate its rendition of the ATB system. Sooo... god awfully... slowwwww.

A lot of its best parts do happen in the first half. The highly memorable Black Waltzes, particularly #1 and #3. Bahamut vs. Alexander. Iirc, Disc 2 ends with Garnet cutting her hair right? God, it's been so long.

It ends with the death of the first major antagonist.
I disagree with Ryu's comment that characters become irrelevant with Disc 2, Disc 2 still have a really strong character writing and some of the best scenes of the secondary cast, it's still very much part of the "good first half" of FFIX.
Disc 3 is where the story gets a bit weaker despite a memorable start with Alexander vs Bahamut.

Also yes, despite its faults FFIX is still my favorite out of the entire series. I get why people dislike the second half and the gameplay but it never really bothered me that much. The game has my favorite main cast, one of my favorite villain of the series, a really strong start and my favorite soundtrack of the bunch. (even though I'm a big apologist for FFXIII-2's soundtrack. I know people hate it but I never understood why, it's really good and it's one of the first who dared to explore new sounds and music genre for the series)

[Atelier-Bagur]

It ends with the death of the first major antagonist.
I disagree with Ryu's comment that characters become irrelevant with Disc 2, Disc 2 still have a really strong character writing and some of the best scenes of the secondary cast, it's still very much part of the "good first half" of FFIX.
Disc 3 is where the story gets a bit weaker despite a memorable start with Alexander vs Bahamut.

I just dont necessarily agree with this. Zidane for being the main protag is probably the one with the most personality compared to the previous two in the series. I think what I like the most about him as how he was used to help the other members of the cast grow in their development, and it all came down to when he had to go through his arc towards the end.

The Terra stuff in Disc 3 was just more of the build up with the true nature of the world which I felt it was paced naturally when we spend a good portion of seeing world of Gaia develop in the first 2 discs. Its always a thing with rpgs for it to slowly open up like this and I thought the weird sci-fi yet high fantasy elements with the concept of souls was an interesting idea.

[Kazhar]

I just dont necessarily agree with this. Zidane for being the main protag is probably the one with the most personality compared to the previous two in the series. I think what I like the most about him as how he was used to help the other members of the cast grow in their development, and it all came down to when he had to go through his arc towards the end.

The Terra stuff in Disc 3 was just more of the build up with the true nature of the world which I felt it was paced naturally when we spend a good portion of seeing world of Gaia develop in the first 2 discs. Its always a thing with rpgs for it to slowly open up like this and I thought the weird sci-fi yet high fantasy elements with the concept of souls was an interesting idea.

I agree with this take actually, the parts that I found weak are everything between the climatic battle in Alexandria and the trip to Terra (basically the whole Kuja Palace + Four fiends arc), but Terra itself follows one of my favorite trope in JRPGs: when the story brutally shifts the setting and the genre of the work entirely. The end-game revelations are... weird (and decades later I'm still not sure if I like Zidane stealing Vivi's entire plot or not), but it serves to create character moments which made a big impression on my 9 years old self.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I agree with this take actually, the parts that I found weak are everything between the climatic battle in Alexandria and the trip to Terra (basically the whole Kuja Palace + Four fiends arc), but Terra itself follows one of my favorite trope in JRPGs: when the story brutally shifts the setting and the genre of the work entirely. The end-game revelations are... weird (and decades later I'm still not sure if I like Zidane stealing Vivi's entire plot or not), but it serves to create character moments which made a big impression on my 9 years old self.

Yeah although I didnt personally see as Zidane stealing Vivi' plot. More so as a payoff to when Zidane needed to take his own advice, it was thanks to his friends whom he helped support them in their arcs to finally help him with his own character arc.

Also that "Youre not Alone" segment with the song and everything was really good for me. EW totally tried to copy it during the last segment in Ultima Thule (including calling the quest the same name as the song!) but it wasnt as well implemented.

[Vyrerus]

With the measure of hindsight, and seeing it put like that, I'd say they used Vivi's plot as a way to basically flesh out Zidane's plot while also keeping the main twist centered around Zidane without giving it away.

The thing that drives me batty about Zidane though, is that he's always put his kindness and faith in others, and the whole, "You're Not Alone" segment is just so drastically out of character for him to me. But not only that, the more you analyze his character, you realize it's more of a contrived feel good character rather than a person (as is that scene). He's supposed to want to get on like a bro from Tantalus, a nobody thief from a band of brothers, but the ending result of his character arc is that he's actually some sorta Kuja 2.0 that's perfected, super dee duper powerful, and that's the actual reason for his extreme competence. He was genetically engineered with it. I don't remember if his memory loss about his origins was explained either, but he's more or less a Superman/Goku style dude.

Granted, main character with an epic tie in to the setting's past has been a staple in FF since FFIV, I just really don't like how it was handled with Zidane.

FFIV had Cecil and Golbez as Brothers, pretty much a straight lifted Darth Vader type thing (Maria from FFII also experienced this but she was technically not THE main character).
FFV had Buttz related to one of the OG Crystal Warriors that initially sealed Exdeath (and this becomes true of the whole party actually).
FFVI had Terra be half Esper and Celes be Esper infused through Magitek (covering both starting characters for WoB and WoR respectively).
FFVII has Cloud's whole amnesia/Soldier/Zack's persona infusion thing.
FFVIII had Squall be related to Ellone and Laguna and such and the Amnesia orphanage run by Edea too.
FFIX has Zidane be Kuja's "brother" as well as a "soul-less" Genome as well as amnesia about it.

So it's par for the course for the series, but I find its delivery in IX to be a tad hamfisted, with the important story beats around it already expressed better by other characters, while it also makes Zidane's whole, "My friends are my strength." thing with Amarant ring hollow.

[Shinkuno]

Too bad you and everyone else in this thread aint no different because I bet you believe Shadowbringers's story was top tier unlike me who believes it wasnt that good. I'm in the Stormblood msq was actually really good crowd. WHERE'S MY ECHO CHAMBER HUH!?

You can join mine! In my opinion, all the games story from ARR to EW is very average. Stuff thats been seen in anime a million times, some of the plots even bordering fanfiction quality. Will never understand the high praise the games story gets

[Melorie]

I would like to hear some peoples examples of good storytelling in rpgs.


I personally still hold FFIX as one the series's best stories told with an interesting and diverse cast, its themes, its world and even its main villian. Nothing in FFXIV can ever surpass it imo

I feel like FFIX really is good at creating a diverse cast with a background that keeps you interested. It really nails an aspect of fantasy that nowadays it seems quite hard to reach, which is to keep that feeling of a very different world without throwing tons of forced worldbuilding on you. That's a thing that I forever miss in current FFs: a truly diverse cast. I also enjoyed FFT, I feel like Wiegraf and Delita are amazing characters. It's hard to see if SE is capable of bringing that nuance to a character without making it overboard in XIV.

I'm a fan of Divinity: Original Sin II because it was good at giving a sense of a world that is dying and in despair. And I feel like Bioware did it good sometimes, even with all it's mistakes. Dragon Age: Origins is cliché but a satisfying cliché. Dragon Age II had a lot of faults but it was an RPG that tried to tell the history of a city, which is really ambitious and interesting. Pillars of Eternity is a bit boring when it comes to aesthetic but I also enjoyed the story a lot. Persona 5 is really creative and cute at making you "bond" with your companion.

My favorite RPG probably remains Disco Elysium, it is one of the most interesting texts I've come across _and_ I actually enjoy the lack of combat and how they solved that in a way that the person is interested in the overall game besides the gameplay as well.

[ReynTime]

I like ARR because of everything other than the key plot points. Though I like the politics drama that happen in 2.1~2.55, even if the payoff for one of them was terrible in 3.0.
I used to hate the 'filler' in ARR, until I finished Endwalker and realised I was sick of having everyone simping hard for my character. Something that both ARR (when not dealing with Primals or operation Archon) and the dreadful, oh so awful, bottom of the barrel worstest game ever with no redeemable features, qualities or ideas at all that was Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 did better than the laughable 6.1 kickoff was giving me the sense that I was, in fact, an adventurer trying to make a name (and gil) for myself. It certainly made the more mundane quests justified, since as far as the NPCs involved were concerned I was a nobody, sometimes a nobody acting self-important.
It's no wonder I only enjoy watching other people stream the first 2/3 of ARR, Heavensward and the Othard portion of Stormblood. I actually enjoyed how leves worked in 1.0, odd dangerous jobs available for adventurers to pick up and gather at the camps to join other adventurers, and despite the lazy design of the maps, the sense of scale and the distance between some of the more interesting and at the time mysterious points of interest added to the sense of adventure. The story was just kind of there (the little which I prefer the tone for over the extremely "popcorn and hugs" style of Endwalker) but it was of little consequence to me compared to the feel of having to earn my own reputation through the hard work. Admittedly I didn't really partake much in the "endgame", including the conclusion of the 1.23 story personally.

I liked IX's plot. It dealt with the subject of Death, Life and its meaning, in a far more nuanced manner than, again, Endwalker. And it did so without killing anyone from the main cast. VI had the guts of giving the antagonist a few tastes of victory and achieve the atmosphere of defeat permeating through the setting.


I just think sometimes it looks as if a lot of XIV players live in this time bubble where only Square-Enix RPGs are worth playing, when they've been nothing but alternating between chasing gameplay trends (as opposed to setting them like they used to) with a coat of visual spectacle as the only real discerning identity, or smaller nostalgia bait projects that while solid games themselves are also not doing anything to push the japanese style RPG sub-genre forward.
Just because a game has a more "anime" artstyle doesn't mean its writing is just as so. Some of the trails games are better written than anything new SE has put out in a long while. Xenoblade games while stained by the fanservice in the second game, touch on subjects and themes that XIV can't touch without treating their audience like little kids that need things spelled out, etc. Persona can get really colorful but it has certainly done more for the sub genre than SE has done too. Both Xenoblade and Persona actually tried to bring needed changes to the gameplay formula of jRPGs too, instead of just giving up and going "fuck it, let's just make them action games with hallway design". Because at least someone in the japanese industry other than From Software knows to look into what is being done in the far more financially successful western style RPGs and adapting (ADAPTING is the keyword here) SOMETHING from them that isn't just 'ooo pretty cinematic'. How come Monolith Soft makes far more immersive worlds than a company with the budget and resources of Square-Enix, who are still designing Midgar like it's a hallway layout straight from PS1?

If more people stopped with the double standards and pre-judgement towards other japanese RPG franchises, the industry there would actually evolve. And it would benefit everyone, Final Fantasy included.

[Melorie]

I like ARR because of everything other than the key plot points. Though I like the politics drama that happen in 2.1~2.55, even if the payoff for one of them was terrible in 3.0.

I also feel like the filler from ARR has a ton of interesting storytelling, although it does suffer from the quest design. The whole politics drama is actually fairly interesting, but they erase most of the consequences of everything as always. Which is also a point that gets me with FFXIV lore: a lot of things happen, all those giant things... and there's little consequence for any of them. I'm not even saying "hahaaaa kill characters!" but any feeling of despair, fear or any kind of dreadness are... cheap, simply put. It is really hard to actually feel threatened in the story, especially a story with so many baits to the point that you can see them coming miles away. I'm not even against the trope "friendship wins everything!", but at this point it is, well, tiring.

[Atelier-Bagur]

With the measure of hindsight, and seeing it put like that, I'd say they used Vivi's plot as a way to basically flesh out Zidane's plot while also keeping the main twist centered around Zidane without giving it away.

The thing that drives me batty about Zidane though, is that he's always put his kindness and faith in others, and the whole, "You're Not Alone" segment is just so drastically out of character for him to me. But not only that, the more you analyze his character, you realize it's more of a contrived feel good character rather than a person (as is that scene). He's supposed to want to get on like a bro from Tantalus, a nobody thief from a band of brothers, but the ending result of his character arc is that he's actually some sorta Kuja 2.0 that's perfected, super dee duper powerful, and that's the actual reason for his extreme competence. He was genetically engineered with it. I don't remember if his memory loss about his origins was explained either, but he's more or less a Superman/Goku style dude.

Granted, main character with an epic tie in to the setting's past has been a staple in FF since FFIV, I just really don't like how it was handled with Zidane

False, because you see hints of this side of his character much earlier in the game. Such as when he told that story to Garnet at Black Mage Village where you clearly see that he has more going on with his backstory when he talks about wanting to find where he belongs. Same is when he had doubts with wanting to express his feelings to Garnet in the beginning of Disc 3.

That moment of weakness he had at Pandemonium was after having his mind shattered by Garland even though he tried to debate his purpose and identity. It was only after the people he positively affected helped him back that he learned that he already found his place where he belongs. Zidane is the kind of character who cares about others so much he forgets to care about himself.

The reason why he was so special and superior to Kuja was not only due to being given a stronger soul but had the chance to further temper it by growing amongst the Gaians and forging his relationships and identity.