SE, no effort anywhere lately.

[R041]

...

Yeah, I mean that's fair. But WoW does have some pretty fun sub-plots all around the world. I can engage or skip them. Also Dungeons aren't necessarily faster, it really just depends on your class and what you're trying to get out of it. I tried to speed run a few classes and questing was roughly the same, unless I was Rogue. You may find some of the story shit, but at least we're given the option. I think most of the XIV MSQ is pretty bad, and I'm not given an option.

But also you CAN do dungeons OR questing coop at any time. In XIV you're forced to read dialog and sometimes get to do a dungeon with a friend. So that's what I'm saying - The options are there for your gameplay needs. XIV doesn't give you options unless you pay for that sweet skip.

Unfortunately a lot of people try to sell XIV as an MMO experience first, and that's just where it falls flat compared to games like WoW. We need to be more upfront with what it actually is as a game.

Also, after Endwalker - I'm gonna admit, I'm pretty exhausted with all of these space-time grand god plotlines. So maybe that's why WoW was so refreshing with all of the small form storytelling, because I could just swoop in and save a town at my own leisure and not have to worry about who's god is doing what and why. Probably why I really don't care about WoW's grand plot. I care more about the RPG elements.

Isn't that why we want 7.0 in the first place?

But in their defense, it was always the way they told the story. Whether you like it or not is purely up to that person, and some really do like it the way it is now. It's like saying, "I hate that I have to read the item description in Elden Ring. That's such a bad way of telling the story that would otherwise be so interesting. I hope the next DLC will fix that." It's just like no, not going to happen.

Yeah, I admit I fell into the trap. I think it's mostly because back in ARR-HW, it didn't feel so.. Expansive as a story? Like I could invite a friend to play XIV and they didn't have to literally wade through 300 hours of dialog. It felt more immediately engaging. So what I'm dealing with now as an FFXIV vet is sort of an existential crisis that XIV just.. Isn't an MMORPG anymore to me. It's lost a lot of that value over time and gained a new vision of potentially being sold as a Single Player experience over a Multiplayer one.

I kinda just have to live with that, and I feel like the only people I can play with now at Lv90 are ones that are already bound to that same trap.

[CStrife912]

........

Sadly it isn't a fact it has the least engaging gameplay for an msq...that's impossible to say without a survey across every MMO player group so it just falls under opinion. I know what you're saying but it is at the end of the day your opinion. I have played visual novels and I don't really consider it the same, I get some aspects are like that but its Final Fantasy every entry has people standing around and talking yet they are all RPGs unless you're saying the franchise as a whole is a visual novel it is not.

You do play your class in the game, sometimes the solo duties require you to use your toolkit completely sometimes less so but you can't 1 button your way to victory. Also if we go from the beginning the classes are told behind their own story where they go through each ability each sort of quest you get. I think you misunderstand we are not blind defending the game and I could list a ton of things I have issue with but what we are talking about here isn't really a core problem. It has always been stated the game is an RPG first MMO second. Or in some cases its story first gameplay second and it must have worked musn't it if people are still here or more players coming in.

In regards to the coop aspect yes it would be nice if my mates could share my quest however I believe this is for one sort of 'copout' thing. That being in WoW your character really isn't that important to the grand scheme of things. You just help when an issue arises and you're constantly thrown aside and no one remembers your deeds. FF14 you are the main character for better or worse (the constant OH ITS THE WOL WE ARE SAVED does get annoying) but it wouldn't make sense in that your the main character environment to have you and your mate coop a story quest. However this doesn't mean they couldn't trial this with the dailies and weekly quests as a testing ground to get more people doing stuff together.
Also sadly to its own detriment it ain't Final Fantasy unless we kill some form of *insert god here*

[R041]

I get some aspects are like that but its Final Fantasy every entry has people standing around and talking yet they are all RPGs unless you're saying the franchise as a whole is a visual novel it is not.

Also sadly to its own detriment it ain't Final Fantasy unless we kill some form of *insert god here*

Yeah, but somehow XIV managed to even surpass that with how insane it got. It feels weird, and I'm a little sick to my stomach. It's almost worse than DBZ Super.

Also, every FF game has a much more engaging MSQ. If a Single Player Mainline released tomorrow with just the MSQ in the same formula as it is for FFXIV. It'd be ripped to shreds, it would have the absolute worst rating of all FF games.

You'd have to have absolutely amazing combat in the dungeon sections for it to survive.

[DPZ2]

I tried to speed run a few classes and questing was roughly the same, unless I was Rogue. You may find some of the story shit, but at least we're given the option. I think most of the XIV MSQ is pretty bad, and I'm not given an option.

So, do you prefer going through the MSQ once while leveling a single job and then doing whatever the heck you want with the other 18 jobs/classes, or do you prefer going through the story from 1 to 60 for each of the 13+ classes in World of Warcraft?

Quite frankly, getting through 19 classes by leveling from 1 to 90 in order to reach end-game only requires me to sit through Main Story Quests once in this game. Except for class/job quests, I can play with whoever I want in a 'coop' mode for the remaining classes/jobs in FFXIV. Assuming my main job has reached level 90, my level 16 warrior can join your level 16 white mage in level-appropriate dungeons until we get tired of them. And then go on to do other things.

[Y2K21]

I tried WoW on a couple of free weekends that I had when Blizzard was trying to get back a lot of the former players they lost when they were (truly) hemorrhaging players. The questing and leveling as they are today is - how can I phrase this nicely - an afterthought. You are either dumped into a starting island for new players, or can pick which expansion to level up in if you are a returning player.

In either case, questing and leveling goes by in the blink of an eye. The game tries to get you to the current expansion as fast as possible while completely ignoring everything else that came before it. It is very much a hollow experience. And you don't even really learn your class or the lore of the world or anything. The game goes by so fast.

This is actually a major source of complaints in the WoW community from what I can tell. Most players seem to want a revamp of the questing and leveling system in WoW because it is not new player friendly and offers such an empty experience.

I hate to tell you but - Chromie Time and the new starter experience were what people asked for since Legion/BFA. Leveling got to the point where it was just a barrier for new players to level through 100 to 110 levels while not being able to fully experience an expac's full story because leveling xp would drop off after you leveled out of the expansion. There is no hard locking in progression like in FF14 - so once you reach the expansions cap level, you had to move to the next zones to level up.

Do you slow leveling down to fit the story? Well, if you do that - then you kill alts and alt leveling. You make leveling even a larger cliff to climb, and chase away new players with now nine expansions worth of story content they have to swim through.

What Blizzard did was make a streamlined version of level so that a new player could experience the most current story necessary (BFA, Shadowlands has no impact at this point in time really) while making it faster for people to alt level and continue to enjoy the game. On top of that, starting experience was stuck in Cata story (13 years old) or TBC story (16 years old) that no longer has relevance to the plot of today.

[Lium]

It seems like you just read opinion pieces and you haven't actually played BfA, Shadowlands, or Dragonflight.

It is a fact that XIV has the least engaging gameplay for MSQ in the MMO genre. Even if we enjoy the overall plot. No matter how amazing the Trials are as "Wow factors", the dullness between them still isn't engaging.

XIV forces you to play the Visual Novel for 300 hours and players still can't figure out their class. Maybe because the time between actually playing and reading is typically 5-10 hour stretches.

WoW gives you a lot of time to figure out your class, it actually lets you PLAY your class through MSQ unlike XIV. It also has proper class trials and tutorials if you're into that.

It mostly sounds like you're just using negative talking points most FFXIV players make against WoW without actually playing it. I know, because I used those same talking points before - Then I actually played BfA through Dragonflight and had to put my foot in my mouth with how wrong I was.

Also, I enjoy a lot of things in FFXIV more than I do WoW. But that doesn't mean I can say everything is better. I will gladly admit that the MSQ mechanics are dull and lifeless outside of some fun fights we get to do. I wish it were expanded, I wish we could coop more, I wish it had more world and gameplay engagement overall. But unfortunately both the dungeons and maps are used as basic set-pieces for talking heads.

You keep using this word "fact" but I don't think it means what you think it means.

What you've stated is an opinion. A preference to the way WoW does things. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just that it's your opinion.

And no, I haven't played BFA, Shadowlands or Dragonflight, but like I previously stated, I played from 2005 till Legion (which was an expansion I enjoyed.) I've also tried some free weekends that Blizzard offered when they were trying to get former players back.

So, unless the game has drastically and dramatically changed since the free weekend I tried around the end of last year, the leveling process is about as vapid an experience as I've personally encountered in an MMO. And it is a primary complaint in the WoW community. I also find it interesting that you keep mentioning BFA and SL as these are universally acknowledged to be two of the worst expansions in WoW's history. Dragonflight appears to be turning things around for them and seems to be doing well. If it's as radically different from the hollow and lightning fast leveling experience I had then I might give it a try.

[Melorie]

Yeah, as much as I enjoy FFXIV story and eventually played all the way through here, I can't say it is a good gameplay experience. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the trials and cutscenes are spetacular. I found joy from playing it, but I don't feel like the quest design is above criticism just because the plot isn't bad.

GW2 is also a good example of a story that's somewhat nicely told as well, it also uses the maps as a backlog for the story but they're so much more immersive, and you can co-op the entire story. The VA also slaps (I don't really see the NEED of VA in everything, but I can't deny that it adds to the experience).

I really wish people would learn to actually separate a good story TEXT to a good story gameplay. I can see how FFXIV lacks on the second part, and how it's bound to be difficult for new players to actually feel immersed in the game, especially if they have other MMO experience. That is something I don't honestly see them ever changing though. It is what is is.

[R041]

You keep using this word "fact" but I don't think it means what you think it means.

I don't know how else I can present the information to you. The fact is that XIV provides LESS overall opportunity within MSQ for the player to feel engaged with the gameplay, friends, and world. It doesn't mean the story is better or worse. It's just that it provides more opportunity and systems overall. It's a pretty simple idea I think?

An apartment can feel more cozy, but a mansion is factually better.. Does.. That make more sense? Maybe there's a better analogy to be had here.

I really wish people would learn to actually separate a good story TEXT to a good story gameplay. I can see how FFXIV lacks on the second part, and how it's bound to be difficult for new players to actually feel immersed in the game, especially if they have other MMO experience. That is something I don't honestly see them ever changing though. It is what is is.

Exactly! Like I can't deny that the Trials are phenomenal. In an ideal design, I'd have the story engagement of open world WoW with the story impact and Trials/Boss Mechanics of FFXIV.

[drtasteyummy]

...

That sounds highly out of context and biased towards your own opinion. The complaint was about the story issues itself, not how it was delivered to the player. For reference, it's a gigantic difference to say that the way FF14 tells the story is boring and that having the moon as a space taxi operated by bunnies seems ridiculous. The other reason why WoW failed in their past expansion was due to bad designs like the enforced hamster wheel. For all that was a failure, it certainly wasn't because they fell asleep while questing.

[Lium]

I don't know how else I can present the information to you. The fact is that XIV provides LESS overall opportunity within MSQ for the player to feel engaged with the gameplay, friends, and world. It doesn't mean the story is better or worse. It's just that it provides more opportunity and systems overall. It's a pretty simple idea I think?

An apartment can feel more cozy, but a mansion is factually better.. Does.. That make more sense? Maybe there's a better analogy to be had here.

This is what you said, man: "It is a fact that XIV has the least engaging gameplay for MSQ in the MMO genre. Even if we enjoy the overall plot. No matter how amazing the Trials are as "Wow factors", the dullness between them still isn't engaging."

And what I'm saying is, that's an opinion because there are people here, even in this thread, that like that gameplay. I'm not even defending it. I'm just saying some people like it, some people don't. You are in the camp that doesn't like it. And that's okay.

It's as simple as that.