Twitch streamers still blatantly cheating on stream.

[Midareyukki]

I disagree on a couple things relating to Cact. If we're going to be honest:

- I wouldn't necessarily call it the same as having a raid leader do callouts because of the speed at which Cact gives you information. I used to have a raid lead that switched to using Cact for callouts because it would tell him what to say/do faster than he would be able to without it.

- Needing to know mechs is debatable and really depends on what youre doing. Taking a fight like P1S for example, it tells you everything. You don't need to know any mechs outside of basic common sense for what the words: inside, outside, left, right, etc. mean. For the pizza slice section, it tells you which one is safe and where to stand. Again, information came from old raid lead of mine.

I don't think you're disagreeing on cactbot, just adding to something I said. The issue is that I put it very, very loosely, so the problem lies in how I worded it

Some features are indeed personal, as they tell you where to go based on what marker you have, but those are specific mechanics.

Cactbot does indeed do things automatically, and it bypasses reaction time. Because it's reading information coming from the server live.

Well, from the experiences I've had when people I raided with used cactbot (which was loud and you could hear it over voice chat xD it was funny), it was E9S and the mechanics were pretty minute, you still needed to know what to do. But there was a call-out, I think on the pizza slices that was super awkward and came in way too late. They just didn't bother with that one. You still needed to know how to react to it. The call-outs weren't exactly intuitive.

However if we're going to use it in something as straightforward as... maybe Limit Cut? Or, nah, simpler: Construct 7's maths thing. Then yeah, you don't even need to think about it, just stand on the place. I said "It's no different than your raid leader doing it" because I have done call-outs for Construct 7 for 2 different people in my party while still having to resolve my own. If mechanics are straightforward enough, then you'll just need to react accordingly. And if the whole thing is global, then it's even easier. This, however, is assuming a human-like reaction time, which Cactbot does not have.

The rest is, as I said, the fact that Cactbot is a lot more personal, and as you said, instantaneous because it's reading directly from the server. Even in my own analogies, I still point out: Cactbot eliminates human error in terms of mentally resolving a mechanic.

That's the automation part of it: the fact that it does so without human input and instantly. Really, that information was kinda there, so it's not really disagreeing, but it was very loosely worded and just overall not properly conveyed. You're otherwise correct.

[VelKallor]

The rest is, as I said, the fact that Cactbot is a lot more personal, and as you said, instantaneous because it's reading directly from the server. Even in my own analogies, I still point out: Cactbot eliminates human error in terms of mentally resolving a mechanic. That's the automation part of it: the fact that it does so without human input and instantly. Really, that information was kinda there, so it's not really disagreeing, but it was very loosely worded and just overall not properly conveyed. You're otherwise correct.

Hence: using it is cheating.

Ive asked this before and never gotten an answer: If people are , as they say, better players...why cant they beat these instances w / out all these addons? Id hazard a guess it points to a skill issue.

[Iyrnthota]

Hence: using it is cheating.

Ive asked this before and never gotten an answer: If people are , as they say, better players...why cant they beat these instances w / out all these addons? Id hazard a guess it points to a skill issue.

For some people it is like that. For others it's about consistency and speed.

You see it a lot with speedrunners who cheat.
It's not about skill, they have the skills to get the results they want. It's about getting to the result, quicker.

For speedrunners it's about getting that good run in 100 tries rather than 10,000.
For raiders I imagine it's about getting that clear in <5 wipes, rather than in 50.

[Kolaina]

For some people it is like that. For others it's about consistency and speed.

You see it a lot with speedrunners who cheat.
It's not about skill, they have the skills to get the results they want. It's about getting to the result, quicker.

For speedrunners it's about getting that good run in 100 tries rather than 10,000.
For raiders I imagine it's about getting that clear in <5 wipes, rather than in 50.

It’s still questionable if they would clear the content without the use of third party tools. Being told how to handle the mechanics instead of learning them on their own, there’s a big difference. It’s hand holding. No skill about it

[Iyrnthota]

It’s still questionable if they would clear the content without the use of third party tools. Being told how to handle the mechanics instead of learning them on their own, there’s a big difference. It’s hand holding. No skill about it

I feel like I could just re-quote my previous comment here and it'd be just as relevant tbh.

[Stormpeaks]

It’s still questionable if they would clear the content without the use of third party tools. Being told how to handle the mechanics instead of learning them on their own, there’s a big difference. It’s hand holding. No skill about it

"x mechanic is coming in 10 seconds" is not the same as "dont worry let the plugin do the job and move on its own", it's literally just a callout, it's not automation or a bot

[LianaThorne]

"x mechanic is coming in 10 seconds" is not the same as "dont worry let the plugin do the job and move on its own", it's literally just a callout, it's not automation or a bot

I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not cact physically moves your character for you or takes away full player control. Also, "x mech is coming in x seconds" isn't the only thing it does. As has been said above both by myself and others, it tells you specifically where to stand or a general idea of where to go. You really don't need to know the fight in the same way that a typical person without plugin access needs to. You know me, I'm a pretty big advocate for mods/plugins but in this sense, it does feel a bit gross to see people using them to avoid experiencing a fight properly. I can understand someone doing callouts in a static using it since they're ultimately the failsafe for people who might get confused, but otherwise...

At least give yourself a chance to learn the fight/experience it without them before using them. They really aren't *that* complicated with a bit of effort put into understanding how they work.

[Midareyukki]

Weird thought, but that's because it popped into my head after reading Liana say "They really aren't *that* complicated with a bit of effort put into understanding how they work."

It's odd to see Cactbot be so reviled at the same time that there are people who want content to be made easier. It's just funny to see both camps existing, because in some topics we'd say "people need to use their brains more, mechanics aren't complicated, they just require effort", but in other topics the prevalent message is "content should respect peoples' time, not everyone wants to tryhard and play optimally, people just want to have fun".

I'd get the hate on cheating if it were in Savage, because it's meant to be super hard. But casual players won't really care for that. They're not the ones raiding, doing runs for parses, care about world firsts and figuring out Ultimates. If they ever engage, it's after those have loooong been figured out and there are guides out there. Strats to make it so you don't need to figure the mechanic out, just react on the smallest possible inputs. So wouldn't Cactbot be okay for those people? But by the logic of "people should put in a bit more effort" (which I share btw) would shut that down, even for casual players.

I personally see Cactbot as a "mild cheat", though that's just me. It certainly doesn't look like the big bad people assume it is, but it does facilitate way too much. It certainly is doing better than a human would. But for the most part it's just call-outs. It's an "unnecessary crutch". Dw too much about me saying this tho; I don't make the rules or enforce them, SE's definition of a cheat is what matters. Just saying this because I know someone would take this out the window.
But I at the same time want there to be midcore content and fights to remain hard and challenging, as long as they're accessible (bc I'm colourblind, so sue me). Yet that also gets thrown out the window.

It's just weird how those two mindsets are existing without a middle ground?

If you don't find it weird, dw, I never said I was a genius.

[VelKallor]

It's odd to see Cactbot be so reviled at the same time that there are people who want content to be made easier.

Midareyukki

Ive never asked for that. I have restated that they dont need to make story content HARDER, as that content is made to be easily completable. Midcore: where do you see Criterion and Variant in that category?

Forget the rewards, thats another argument entirely, but the content itself?

Do you see Criterion as midcore? If not, what would you be aiming for?

So wouldn't Cactbot be okay for those people?

No. If you cant win without cheating, you dont deserve to win.

[Iyrnthota]

Midareyukki

Ive never asked for that. I have restated that they dont need to make story content HARDER, as that content is made to be easily completable. Midcore: where do you see Criterion and Variant in that category?

Forget the rewards, thats another argument entirely, but the content itself?

Do you see Criterion as midcore? If not, what would you be aiming for?



No. If you cant win without cheating, you dont deserve to win.

I guess returning to my earlier comment, that's not entirely accurate, because for a lot of cheaters they can win without cheating.
It just takes longer, so they cheat to win quicker.