SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[Elizasylen]

Baha makes Garuda Ifrit Titan
Phoenix makes Leviathan Ramuh Shiva

On to 8.0!

[Jirah]

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

[Dyvid]

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

Well, I personally think they need to drop the rigid 120s job rotation concept and just remove MP and replace with job gauges to the party list so players that buff can see when to buff.

But to your specific point:
Umbral Aetherflow adds Earth, Water, Thunder. Each elemental summons their respective Primal for 15s each (45s). After which you can summon Bahamut for 15s. A total of 60s
Astral Aetherflow adds Wind, Fire, Ice. 15s seconds each for 45s then Phoenix the last 15s which give you 120s rotation.

This would also give the 15s per Elemental to add whatever kind of cast magic to fill the gap compared to say Garuda that has a total of 8.5s (four 1.5s spells plus one 2.5s) total rotation time.

Oh, and i totally agree with MCH as well. Every "rework" has been lacking in thought (MCH, MNK, SMN, DRK). Rather than redesign, they just prune until it completely watered down.

[Jirah]

Well, I personally think they need to drop the rigid 120s job rotation concept and just remove MP and replace with job gauges to the party list so players that buff can see when to buff.

But to your specific point:
Umbral Aetherflow adds Earth, Water, Thunder. Each elemental summons their respective Primal for 15s each (45s). After which you can summon Bahamut for 15s. A total of 60s
Astral Aetherflow adds Wind, Fire, Ice. 15s seconds each for 45s then Phoenix the last 15s which give you 120s rotation.

This would also give the 15s per Elemental to add whatever kind of cast magic to fill the gap compared to say Garuda that has a total of 8.5s (four 1.5s spells plus one 2.5s) total rotation time.

Oh, and i totally agree with MCH as well. Every "rework" has been lacking in thought (MCH, MNK, SMN, DRK). Rather than redesign, they just prune until it completely watered down.

Ignoring the gaudiness of it all gaudy being the perfect definition of SMN as a whole, what would this play like ultimately? Sounds like cramming 3 primals in a small amount of time just for it to remain tone deaf and one note boarderline like a slightly average healer damage kit just prolonged but also shrunk to remain small and strict for a job that’s while gameplay is 1-1-1

[Dyvid]

Ignoring the gaudiness of it all gaudy being the perfect definition of SMN as a whole, what would this play like ultimately? Sounds like cramming 3 primals in a small amount of time just for it to remain tone deaf and one note boarderline like a slightly average healer damage kit just prolonged but also shrunk to remain small and strict for a job that’s while gameplay is 1-1-1

Well, if I could design it, I would have it play similar to 4.0. Umbral and Astral AF would charge the Aetherflow with respective elemental gems. Then each elemental type would dictate a certain DPS play type and would also be a minimum of four attacks instead of one. The primal summoned would stay out for the duration of the 15s doing an AoE 2.5s auto attacks, so during pulls it's not useless like Automaton Queen. SE could even give them a preset cast order to mix it up. However, I would make them "small" as default, use only range attacks, and scale back the Enkindle's flashy graphics (Titan!!) so it doesn't disrupt other players.

*Earth/Ice would be you quicker cast (1.5s) combo but with more than two buttons similar to your melee combo setup. (Example: 1 > 2 > 3, 1 >3 >4)
*Fire/Water would be your longer cast time spells with more variety based on the primals attacks (Ifrit Example: Incinerate, Crimson Cyclone, Eruption, Sear)
*Wind/Thunder would apply 3 DoTs and a casting spell (Aero/Thunder are DoT spells after all).
*Note I said cast meaning it needs a cast timer, not instant cast. IMO caster rolls should stand still and cast spells. Physical Range should be the run and gun jobs.

After the Umbral or Astral gems are used up you can cast either Bahamut (Umbral) or Phoenix (Astral). Give each a 1 > 2 > 3 combo with 2.5s cooldown. Change Bahamut Enkindle to Megaflare because two Akh Morns is just silly at this point. Change Rekindle to Revelation and make Flame of Rebirth Phoenix's Enkindle. Next, I would have Everlasting Flight changed to a large AoE Regen Circle which is cast at the target. In respect, Bahamut would use Shadowflare, a large AoE DoT circle which is cast at the target.

You can also toss on some abilities to help round everything to include summon type animation attack like Susano, Odin, Alexander, Bismark, etc... (don't need to replace carbuncle just for a spell animation).


Edit: Now this is just an idea of trying to blend what worked in the past with what people want the job to be in the present. I don't think SE is going to do anything other than add another pretty ability or two, keep it a two-button job, and pat themselves on the back for it. Rightfully so, sadly, because it seems people want a simple as can be job that a Drinking Bird Desk Toy can perform.

[Jirah]

Well, if I could design it, I would have it play similar to 4.0. Umbral and Astral AF would charge the Aetherflow with respective elemental gems. Then each elemental type would dictate a certain DPS play type and would also be a minimum of four attacks instead of one. The primal summoned would stay out for the duration of the 15s doing an AoE 2.5s auto attacks, so during pulls it's not useless like Automaton Queen. SE could even give them a preset cast order to mix it up. However, I would make them "small" as default, use only range attacks, and scale back the Enkindle's flashy graphics (Titan!!) so it doesn't disrupt other players.

*Earth/Ice would be you quicker cast (1.5s) combo but with more than two buttons similar to your melee combo setup. (Example: 1 > 2 > 3, 1 >3 >4)
*Fire/Water would be your longer cast time spells with more variety based on the primals attacks (Ifrit Example: Incinerate, Crimson Cyclone, Eruption, Sear)
*Wind/Thunder would apply 3 DoTs and a casting spell (Aero/Thunder are DoT spells after all).
*Note I said cast meaning it needs a cast timer, not instant cast. IMO caster rolls should stand still and cast spells. Physical Range should be the run and gun jobs.

After the Umbral or Astral gems are used up you can cast either Bahamut (Umbral) or Phoenix (Astral). Give each a 1 > 2 > 3 combo with 2.5s cooldown. Change Bahamut Enkindle to Megaflare because two Akh Morns is just silly at this point. Change Rekindle to Revelation and make Flame of Rebirth Phoenix's Enkindle. Next, I would have Everlasting Flight changed to a large AoE Regen Circle which is cast at the target. In respect, Bahamut would use Shadowflare, a large AoE DoT circle which is cast at the target.

You can also toss on some abilities to help round everything to include summon type animation attack like Susano, Odin, Alexander, Bismark, etc... (don't need to replace carbuncle just for a spell animation).


Edit: Now this is just an idea of trying to blend what worked in the past with what people want the job to be in the present. I don't think SE is going to do anything other than add another pretty ability or two, keep it a two-button job, and pat themselves on the back for it. Rightfully so, sadly, because it seems people want a simple as can be job that a Drinking Bird Desk Toy can perform.

Before I digest this, is button bloat an issue? What about recovery? If the SMN dies or a transition is done can it recover its 6 primal trail easily? And this is all assuming the pet AI won’t bug out. Theirs more to consider if you dig. SMN isn’t popular because it’s piss easy it’s popular because it’s flashy and the illusion of power, as thinly veiled as it is, while old SMN was more complex but lacked that fist of power like casting flare or doing a pitch perfect or a tornado kick

[Dyvid]

Before I digest this, is button bloat an issue? What about recovery? If the SMN dies or a transition is done can it recover its 6 primal trail easily? And this is all assuming the pet AI won’t bug out. Theirs more to consider if you dig. SMN isn’t popular because it’s piss easy it’s popular because it’s flashy and the illusion of power, as thinly veiled as it is, while old SMN was more complex but lacked that fist of power like casting flare or doing a pitch perfect or a tornado kick

Well such nuances are something to be worked out in the design phase, not concept and it's not like anything this would ever be made anyway. However it would have more buttons can say Bard, 4 spells that change based on element and 1 or 2 AoE, 2 AF (Astral and Umbral), 3 gem summons buttons that change based on AF, 1 Demi and 2 Enkindle/Trance Ability buttons.

As for death, that's an interesting question which begs to ask "Should it have an easy recovery or not even skip a beat because of death? Shouldn't death have some kind of penalty beside just a simple stat squash?" I would say if you died during Umbral AF phase, you could use Astral AF to recover. Again, it's a concept, not design and it's never ever going to be made.

Now I would love to believe people play SMN for the visual but then I read other post say they like SMN because it's straightforward and simple to play compared to other jobs. At this point I would rather just play a Heavenward Classic server over this mess.

[Vinal211]

personally, i believe that this version of SMN can get more complex than the rigid simplicity it is right now, and to me, the simplicity lets my mind freely wander on how it could be improved. do i think it will ever be as complex as old SMN? no, that game style had a complexity unique to it in this game. but this gameplay style is also unique in a way as well. so i think it can still work, it just comes down to whether or not the Devs actually have people checking the forums and stuff for feedback, and whether they'll even use it.

[Renathras]

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

I'm confused, how would it be hard?

Maybe you mean Demi-Summon instead of Primal? Right now, you have Demi1, 3x Primals, Demi2, 3x Primals. So they could swap 3 of the Primals for the other three "Classic" Primals (Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva) where you use three after Bahamut and the other three after Phoenix. It would literally require no change to the existing rotation. The only sticking point would be if they could find 3 more ways to use Gemshine/Astral Flow, but it's honestly not hard, and I even pitched some ideas. I'm confused why you think it wouldn't fit in a 120 sec rotation when it already DOES.

Not to mention most people are hoping they drop the 2 min buff system in 7.0 anyway.

Me personally, I love SMN. It's one of the few Jobs you really don't need to run parsers and spend hours theorycrafting (or reading websites that do) to figure it out. You can actually figure it out entirely on your own using in-game resources, something I think should always be true of Jobs/classes in games. SMN as it exists now is insanely better than SMN as it was before EW. Though I still do feel, personally, they should have taken the other half of Old SMN's kit and made Green Mage out of it. Old SMN really had enough stuff to get two full Jobs out of it.

But given the two, I'll take New SMN over Old SMN basically any day of the week. The old one was held together with wishes and duct tape, and it's a miracle it even worked to begin with, considering it was a Frankenstein creation of grafting random bits onto the ARR Green Caller that, improbably, actually worked, but only just, with any new changes risking the whole thing flying apart.

[Vinal211]

The only sticking point would be if they could find 3 more ways to use Gemshine/Astral Flow

i had some ideas myself, and it goes beyond just ARR Primals:
Ramuh: every gemshine/brilliance gives a stack of favour, and using them up activates Bolt Strike, an AoE that increases in potency with every stack of favour, first with a maximum of 50 potency, then a trait later on increases the potency to 100
Leviathan: places the Tidal Roar debuff on an enemy, and any gemshine/brilliance that hits said enemy causes it to explode in water aether, damaging nearby enemies and healing nearby allies
Shiva: grants the Dreams of Ice shield buff to allies in range, with the action changing into Dreams Shattered until the shield runs out. if the shield is broken by damage or by activating Dreams Shattered, it deals AoE damage for each shield destroyed

Warring Triad (Warring Trance/Demi-summon)
Gemshine: Malkuth
Brilliance: Cintamani
Astral Flow: Azhura Malda (powerful single target attack)
Enkindle: Eternal War (even more powerful single target)

Ravana (Bloody Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Falling Laughter (every cast of gemshine/brilliance causes a sword to stab into the targeted enemy, dealing minor bonus damage.)

Bismark (Expansive Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Breach Eruption (Long charge time for powerful line AoE)

Alexander (Temporal Arcanum):
Sacrament (places a Wildfire style debuff on the enemy that increases in damage once it explodes if the enemy was hit with Gemshine/Brilliance beforehand. single target. later trait gives buff for two instant casts if all gemshine/brilliances are used before Sacraments timer runs out)

Shinryu (Umbral Trance/Demi-Summon):
Single Target: Umbral Impulse
Aoe: Umbral Flare
Enkindle: Proto Star (single target)
Astral Flow: Aetherial Corruption (damage down and vuln up on a single target)

Susano-o (Revelry Arcanum):
Astral Flow: The Sealed Gate (long lasting powerful DoT on a single target. possibly lasts until end of Shinryu gem phase?)

Lakshmi (Blissful Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Vril/Vril Ignition (Places an "aura" like buff on a single ally, which starts accumulating damage taken. Vril changes into Vril Ignition for duration of buff, and if Vril Ignition is activated, 25% (trait ups it to 50%) of damage taken is either given to the ally as a heal, or back to the enemy as damage. unsure which yet.)

Tsukuyomi (Suffering Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Nightfall/Reprimand (places a debuff on a target, with Nightfall changing into Reprimand for the duration of the debuff. debuff stacks with every Gemshine/Brilliance that hits target. activating the debuff using Reprimand will cause damage, the potency increasing the more stacks there are, along with a new debuff that increases further damage taken, with the potency of that also increasing based on how many stacks of nightfall were on the enemy beforehand.)