What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

Wow look at the time, it's link the discord o' clock! If you, lurker or poster, want to seek some solace to unload how you really feel about Endwalker's masterclass in story telling without being told you simply didn't get its deep themes you moron, then you're welcome to drop by and say hello. I swear we're not all Ancientaboos, and I realize this may sound like suspiciously specific denial, but it's actually true.
https://discord.gg/5xyG6HF9

I simply feel like pointing out that any interpretation of Venat that paints her as purely heroic or purely villanous is contradictory to what we *see* in the game regarding her and Hydaelyn, and same applies to Hermes and to character who stands right on same level as those two, but does not get that level of critique because he was lucky enough to be game's first proper tumblr sexyman and first well-written and well-explored villain - Emet Selch.

First of all, might be just me, but, yes, he is a Tumblr sexyman, unarguably, but I bristle at that because it's often used to dismiss arguments made by anyone who is a fan of Ascians and Ancients in general. I have written genuine long effort posts about the moral dissonance of Endwalker VS Shadowbringers and my disappointment with the story finale only to have some Reddit clowns tell me to go back to Tumblr and ship my fWoL with Emet who totally DiD nOtHiNg wRoNg. I feel like it's backlash against his status as the clearly most popular character from the game, which doesn't really stem from how badly we all want to get railed by the guy, but rather from, as you pointed out, him being genuinely a well-written and entertaining villain – which Hermes indeed isn't, by most sane metrics. As for Venat, well, I would have loved for her to be a well-written and entertaining villain of the well-intentioned extremist anti-villain sort, but, yeah, I guess that didn't work out.

But anyway, to me the comparison between Venat and Emet feels disingenuous, for the very simple reason that Emet is properly identified as a villain and antagonist throughout, whereas Hydaelyn, while you are initially able to express doubt towards her, is largely (not entirely, of course) painted as a fundamentally good person who did the hard and cruel but ultimately right thing, and she faces very little to no opposition over the atrocity she has committed, if only because her position as the single person in history who knew everything about Meteion and the Final Days (and the reason for that is another very convoluted can of worms) gives her additional justification. And the minion being named Herois stands out rather egregiously as well. You might not have paid much attention to it, but yeah I cringed hard enough to give my face some permanent wrinkles…

I'd say it's more about presentation and how they stand in the overall story of the full arc rather than the character's morality in Endwalker itself. It feels like Hydaelyn directly committing a very unambiguous genocide, and then indirectly approving of the Ascians' for the sake of closing the time loop, along with blatantly lying through her teeth for literal millenia, are brushed away far too lightly for how enormous it all is. The game, meanwhile, makes sure you don't forget Ascians killed everyone on a Shard + however many casualties a calamity resulted in on the Source every time a rejoining happened (though, I'd say I am being far too kind here in saying the game talks of Ascians, because the truth is that it is far too often Emet-Selch and Emet-Selch alone that is mentioned… but I digress).

It's not all black and white IMO, but it certainly feels more slanted toward highly contrasted monochrome rather than a grey landscape. Especially coming after Shadowbringers, and I suspect this is why a lot of us here are pissed about Endwalker. Had it come on its own, it wouldn't have been as bad. But since we have Shadowbringers to compare it to, Endwalker stands out as a real step backwards in terms of nuanced conflict. Because ultimately, what little gray morality Endwalker had in characters like Venat and Hermes (and yes, I would say Hermes is presented rather positively as a whole) comes at the price of dehumanizing the Ancients; as in, they both committed great evils, yes, but it was against Ancients, and that society was a pretty cold and callous dystopia of Stepford smilers pretending everything is fine in their perfect paradise and deserving of their fall, innit? Boy, I sure am feeling like a bored hubristic immortal wizard today, I think I'm gonna go create then kill a bunch of cute animals because playing god is just what I do! I'm a doomed dead end anyway, and there's nothing I could ever do against the Dynamis apocalypse because I'm such an emotionally shallow womanchild who's going to kill herself out of boredom anyway – or because the evil oppressive amaurotian society is forcing me to conform to their suicide cult. As it does!
Like, you might think I'm sarcastically exaggerating the negative portrayal here, but I regret to inform you I have actually seen these arguments made against Ancients in the past year, and how could I truly blame these people when part of it is what the game not-so-subtly implies? Sure, so the evil oppressive society forcing people to kill themselves to conform is a deranged headcanon (not that this stops certain people…), but then the game also features "Happiness was on Etheirys all along, but it was not always so" as an answer you can give Meteion. And… well. I don't think I've ever ranted about that particular middle finger, but give me a break here, by the time I reached that point in the game my eyes had glazed over and I was staring through my screen – and then it hit me with Zenos! Let me out, 6.0, please.
Anyway, yeah, dehumanizing the Ancients. I don't think I need to explain why this severely diminishes the impact of the Unsundered's story and thus Shadowbringers. That was what made Shadowbringers morally grey. And so, for Endwalker to undo that… I would call its characters, individually, morally grey, but its place in the story arc as a whole itself? Absolutely not.

I also disagree with the notion that because the main cast is Sundered, they obviously cannot criticize Hydaelyn/Venat because if she hadn't done what she did, they wouldn't exist. I feel like this is a non-argument, frankly. Calling out your parents for the horrible stuff they've done only to then have someone tell you "well you wouldn't be here without them now WOULD YOU" is… at best snark in bad faith. I expect the protagonists of this boring shōnen fantasy to stand up for their moral principles, because I've never really been given the impression (not intentionally on the writers' part it seems, at least) that they would be selfish bastards. I, as the main hero of this story, would absolutely have called her out on her decisions, and to me it is absurd that "well she made you!!" would even weigh in the balance here. I don't believe this is a out-of-universe-player PoV VS in-universe-player-character PoV thing either – I'm not sure what knowledge we've gleaned from the omniscient narrator that our character wouldn't be aware of. Even the fact that Hydaelyn is responsible for the Unsundered's unsundering is hinted at by Emet in his UT dialogue, though I suppose this comes a little late to accuse Hydaelyn of anything as she is gone forever by then (lmao bye). To be frank, had I actually been my WoL, I would have asked about this far sooner – or indeed, at all – because, to me, it is such a foundational aspect of the universe's lore it is inimaginable nobody would have cared to ask Hydaelyn, but I guess this shows how different my priorities are from the writers', huh?
And then we have Y'shtola, the person who handwaves away Hydaelyn's doubts about literally deleting her entire species with "well, Dynamis!", who if anything should have been more empathetic to the Ancients given that she has literally spent an untold amount of time browsing Anamnesis Anyder. As a whole, I entirely expected these likely-morally-good scholars to reasonably question the "supreme deity" and her shady deeds, no matter how well-intentioned she was.

Yoshida said he wasn't aware of people paying that close attention to details (in reference to the Shadow hunter scene....zooming in on the masks and people able to potentially identify them) but going on that I'll assume small details don't matter.

Wise choice. That Q&A really was something of a nail in the coffin, wasn't it?

Also, I'm still pissed about that particular tidbit. A mask that looks like a lion? Just like Nabriales's mask looked like a scorpion, Igeyorhm's like a bow and arrow pointing down, Mitron's like a pair of bull horns, Elidibus's like a snake's face with huge fangs and sensory pits and Loghrif's like the ribbed motif of a ram's horns? (I'm drawing a bit of a blank on Emet's, but I guess the two arcs represent twins, and Lahabrea's looks more like a Bombo than a fish, but I'm giving him a pass because he was the first to be designed.) Could it be that this lion mask might be foreshadowing for Fandangle Dingobills being Leo, as anyone who ever gave a damn about Ascians was well aware of?

Why, of course not! SIKE lmao

Still salty he was an Ascian in name only, too. In a better timeline, I would have got my mad scientist sundered Fandaniel looking like Hermes wearing proper Ascian robes and a lion mask, and he would have looked damn fine pulling it off, too.

I'm so mad at Endwalker, for multiple reasons.

That being said, I really like Hades as a character, but...that's Elidibus's spot. He was the white rabbit motif we had in ARR, the ascian following us should have been him. The only thing is that the whole friendship with Hades, but then again, that could have been Elidibus.

YEP ^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and it isn't even my shameless bias speaking (Themis finalfantasyxiv please call me). A lot of what Emet did was what an emissary or mediator might have done. Showing us their side and getting us to understand them. Even the friendship argument doesn't hold up this well because Pandaemonium literally establishes him as a friend of Azem too, enough that they were going on covert ops together (I won't comment on the fact that Elidibus's notion of "covert" entailed him walking through the front door of a highly restricted facility wearing the Ancient equivalent of Groucho glasses and moustache. God, Ancients were so good and benevolent and trusting, they didn't deserve any of this).

But here's the thing: Elidibus wasn't Ishikawa's Original Character Do Not Steal. Nevermind him being the longest standing antagonist, or that he was the best positioned for the role that ultimately fell to Emet, or that she literally made him Zodiark too only to casually toss that away and not invite him to the finale of the arc he was supposedly one half of (even though he was still alive after 5.3!). Dude killed himself to save the world – again – in spite of what he might feel for the Sundered defeating his hopes and dreams, and all he got for his trouble was being completely ignored by the MSQ and not even featuring on the final artwork, because Endwalker is terribly myopic about its scope.

Have you heard? I'm mad at Endwalker.

Does moderation truly exist on this forum?

The fact that a troll account ,purposely made as an attack on Theodric – and right around the same time as a certain someone accused Theodric of having alts too, curious – and whose entire purpose is making a bad faith caricature of Endwalker critics, is still allowed to post, in spite of my dozen reports explaining the entire context of why it's nothing more than a troll account, should answer that.

post right above mine

based, server name checks out

[Dzonathan]

based, server name checks out

Not sure if you agree with me or not.

[Aneshda]

Well I couldn't have said it better @Teraq.
Endwalker was the worst disappointment, it gave me a bad depression.
We killed the last Ancients and some random Enemies in the name of Venat.
Yoshi destroyed Garlemald behind the scenes because it was too close to a Stormblood 2.0 Story.
Why do I have this bad feeling that the next Expansion will be a Story about Dragons again, just with a new name for Heavensward 2.0?
At this point I'm not even sure if I would buy the next Expansion.
There are no more „good" Enemies left. And I don't care about „Tribes" or the Scions. I can even say I hate the twins, Alphinaud's clenched fists in every damn scene.
Y'shtola ... at each ending tells things we already knew and let us standing there like a dumb idiot.
G'raha Tia, if I have to promise him in every Scene I'll take him on my next adventure I swear I'll get rid of that bastard there's a cliff somewhere high enough for him.
They even ruined Estinien. I want a Scion that contradicts, questions us and not a Fighting Machine that says yes and amen to everything. And Zero ... get rid of her. I don't want to hear in every Scene how much she hates Zenos.
Gimme my Zenos back, even if so many thinks he was dull ... he was far better as every Scion.

[Teraq]

Why do I have this bad feeling that the next Expansion will be a Story about Dragons again, just with a new name for Heavensward 2.0?
At this point I'm not even sure if I would buy the next Expansion.

I have no idea what 7.0 will be about, but right now I'm finding it very hard to care. Unless the expansion setup manages to be riveting stuff… and given that the story has gotten rid of the two factions I cared the most about, I'm having a hard time imagining it will. I found the Scions okay in Shadowbringers, but Endwalker somehow managed to make them feel flatter than ever. I almost liked Zero Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Ravenway in 6.2, but it feels like they burned through her entire character development in two patches flat, and even as someone who doesn't care very much for Zenos the constant negativity against this dead man feels a little tired. Man, back when they teased that his reaper avatar (cool design too) might play a role, I hadn't quite imagined it would be this fanfic OC.

As for the Four Fiends… I'm usually a fan of villain group dynamics, but they were done pretty dirty by lack of proper screen time. And by proper screen time, I mean not just showing them to us via their Zoom videoconference avatars before properly appearing for all of one or two scenes before dying. It felt far too impersonal and rushed. This MSQ is basically a trial side story, and I feel like the previous one had a far more memorable villain so far, even without voice acting. Burn out the bad!

And speaking of gloriously dastardly bad guys that haven't even been voiced (yet?) yet still manage to have more presence than anything in 6.x, the one thing I have left to look forward to is Pandaemonium.
I can hardly wait to see how Endwalker will give me one final middle finger by desecrating my favorite character! Will we tell him nothing about the Final Days/Hermes/Meteion/Venat and let him become the Heart of Zodiark and suffer for twelve thousand years for nothing? Or will we tell him everything and watch as he decides to become the Heart of Zodiark and suffer for twelve thousand years for nothing because Mommy(*) is always right, and he is such a good, precious boy he will do the right thing and strive towards the time loop too?
All I can hope for right now is for the other narcissistic Ancient mother to deliver the goods and free me from this story with one final evil cackle.

(*) Literally. I've seen this theory float around – based on literally nothing but the two of them having blue eyes and white-silver-ish hair – and it is so completely, absolutely cursed for multiple reasons, it can only be true.

Not sure if you agree with me or not.

(I do!)

Venat was against sacrifice of lesser races

Though here I must add: that was the Shadowbringers version of Venat's motivation. In other words, what Emet interpreted her stance as, given that she seemingly told the Convocation nothing of her actual motivation: her fear of her people becoming like this distant alien race, given two whole lines of context from Meteion's report. It wasn't the sacrifice of lesser races she was against, but rather the use of Zodiark at all in order to go back to their way of life, which she believed would eventually lead them down the same path as the Nibirun – as hinted at by her dismayed look after hearing those two lines from Meteion's report, her sincerely wanting to answer Hermes's sophomoric preoccupations and stand equal to the "fairness" of his "test" (which there is so much wrong about, I believe multiple posts have been written in this thread about this particular pile-up of logical fallacies), and the game overall pretending Hermes has any sort of point at all when he brings up how everyone will just commit suicide once the world has been made perfect, as Emet the Ancient traditionalist stands there with his mouth agape like damn how could I ever refute such an unassailable, iron-clad argument…

Look. I know the Shadowbringers version of her motivation actually sounded far more relatable and compelling. I know. I liked it better too. But that's Endwalker for ya!

Venat placed her hopes in lesser races, WoL (6 times rejoined, therefore closer to Ascians than mortals) fulfilled her hopes, not lesser races.

I dunno man.

From where I'm standing Venat is full of shite and she "won" only because my WoLie couldn't scream foul on her hippie ass.

I really like putting it into perspective that way: you were her protégé.e, her mentee, and you presumably trusted and respected her like every other Ancient did (except perhaps for Lahabrea, as shown in one Pandaemonium line – god bless you Heph, though I suppose you are no stranger to narcissists after all, eh)… only for her to wipe away your memories and identity and indirectly kill you. She is now grooming your reincarnations to become her perfect weapon so you may eventually murder your lover very very very good friend, who tragically recognized you before dying, as well as your also-friend and little brother figure who looked up to you (who tragically never recognized you before dying). She let them become lonely, genocidal villains over the course of 12,000 years just to be cogs in her grand master plan. But hey… it's fine, because right at the end of Elpis she told you she would try her best to avert all that, right? Only… well… we only have her word on this, and she sure has a bad track record on truths and lies.
Oh, and your other best friend? Yeah, he sacrificed himself to stop the Final Days she apparently only half-heartedly tried to avert, and he was stuck in purgatory for 12,000 years as a result, dreaming of freedom along with everyone else stuck inside Zodiark.

Meanwhile, the dialogue options after the Mothercrystal trial be like:
> You're a queen, Hydaelyn!
> Thank you so much for committing genocide on our behalf, Venat! What a woman you are!

[Boblawblah]

I think someone needs some love from momma Venat

[Teraq]

Ah, I do love me some Ancient narc queens…

[BaconBits]

I think someone needs some love from momma Venat

Cease.

[AwesomeJr44]

I think someone needs some love from momma Venat

Does her love happen to involve her nuking me, my people, and my planet from orbit?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Does her love happen to involve her nuking me, my people, and my planet from orbit?

Her love involves yeeting you out of FFXIV with the lopporits to find a new MMO-er I mean star

[AwesomeJr44]

Her love involves yeeting you out of FFXIV with the lopporits to find a new MMO-er I mean star

I mean, that does sound pretty in character for her. Just kill/remove anyone who doesn't worship the ground she walks on.