3rd Party Program might as well be legalized

[Seraphor]

Honestly, what the devs should really do if they want this 'grey zone' to be smashed forever is the following.

1) Make an in-game parser, with restrictions on its use to minimize abuse (party-wide only in extreme/savage/ultimate content and only as an option in pre-formed PF parties, personal only in all other instances, turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there).

2) Make it extremely clear that evidence of any use of third-party programs is subject to a ban.

Honestly, the only reason the 'grey zone' exists and the discourse around third party programs is so bad is because of their reluctance to do anything about parsers, and on some level, refusing to ban people for only parsing until it crosses the line into harassment is recognition of their value to the raiding community. But it's obvious that, as someone who used parsers since the Heavensward days, people have been using the current 'don't show, don't tell' stance regarding that to increasingly push forward with attempting to justify use of other types of third party tools whose sole purpose is actual cheating. People would probably still use third-party parsers for the sake of data collection for FFlogs, but the big thing is that legalizing parsers would rob the ability of people using other third party programs granting actual gameplay advantages to hide behind the current grey zone status quo.

There isn't a grey zone. 2 is already the case. If you get caught, you get banned. The thing is they don't go looking for people using third party software, you need to make it known and be reported.

[ForteNightshade]

There isn't a grey zone. 2 is already the case. If you get caught, you get banned. The thing is they don't go looking for people using third party software, you need to make it known and be reported.

They neither enforce nor do anything despite being well aware of ACT and FFlogs' existence. Yoshida has literally said while parsers are prohibited he understands why they're used—likening it to a calculator—and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

That's what we call a grey area.

If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

[Seraphor]

They neither enforce nor do anything despite being well aware of ACT and FFlogs' existence. Yoshida has literally said while parsers are prohibited he understands why they're used—likening it to a calculator—and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

That's what we call a grey area.

If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

He also said, if you are caught using them, you will be banned, don't get caught.

That's not a grey area. You will be banned if caught using them. It's just very tricky to catch people blatantly using parsers.

[Heroman3003]

He also said, if you are caught using them, you will be banned, don't get caught.

That's not a grey area. You will be banned if caught using them. It's just very tricky to catch people blatantly using parsers.

Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

[Seraphor]

Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

[Saraide]

Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

Oh stop it with the concern trolling.

[Heroman3003]

Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

And therein is the contradiction and reason people consider it a grey area. When lead game designer's regularly-voiced views contradict the game's rules and TOS. I am not advocating for use of any modifications, and am kinda against them, even purely graphics-related ones. But even I recognize and see where the root of confusion starts and why community ultimately feels like its a grey area. Yoshi-P isn't just some guy on dev team, he's the face of FF14's development, to the point where people hear his every word as absolute gospel.

[Seraphor]

And therein is the contradiction and reason people consider it a grey area. When lead game designer's regularly-voiced views contradict the game's rules and TOS. I am not advocating for use of any modifications, and am kinda against them, even purely graphics-related ones. But even I recognize and see where the root of confusion starts and why community ultimately feels like its a grey area. Yoshi-P isn't just some guy on dev team, he's the face of FF14's development, to the point where people hear his every word as absolute gospel.

They don't contradict the games rules. Opinions are opinions, and rules are rules.

There is a difference between a moral argument, and a very matter of fact litigious system.
Rules are rules, and moral philosophising is not something you can nail down.

There may be some confusion from translations, and maybe there's a cultural issue too, where the west have a tendency to conflate morality (right and wrong) with law (legal and illegal). These are entirely different things.

[Midareyukki]

Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

You're both right, that's the thing.

You're right because they don't want to put anti-modding software into the game and persecute people who use them without being blatant.

But he's right in that it's still considered illegal. So even if they don't persecute it, that line isn't magically erased.

However both can and do coexist. If you use them, the gray area is specifically there to say that they're not actively going to search the internet and figure out who's using them unless caught. And to be caught, you need to be blatant. The gray area was there to distinguish those who passively use ACT and improve versus the guys who harassed people with mods and parses.

Keep in mind the last time he mentioned a gray area, there was a fear of people modding other peoples' characters, taking pictures and then harassing them with it.

That, and to distinguish people who used Mods versus those who used NVidia's shaders. They were two different things, and he wanted to point out that they understood the difference.

That was it, that was all.

I did on my previous post point out that there is a good thing to come out of them and maybe that's in the gray area? But the gray area is just there to tell you that SE won't be actively looking for you using them. As long as you have a pair of working neurons and don't spread it around or cause trouble.

That's it. That's all there is to it. If you get caught using any, you are still risking a ban. But we also need to look at how it's enforced regardless.

And no amount of fearmongering is going to help the situation.

[DPZ2]

and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

They don't put DRM into the game to know what's on your PC because it's illegal in a number of countries where they have subscribers.

So, can't peek at your PC and the other half the playerbase can't use third-party tools. About the only thing they can do (and they don't report it to the general public) is ban players for activities tied to those tools. Of course, if the playerbase finds out because, well, it gets announced on social media by those banned, we suddenly get tons of extremely pious players invoking "grey area!" as an excuse.

If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

And that is the straight and narrow path for a gaming company to go broke.