On Venat's Role in the Story

[SannaR]

Always don't feed the Mogwai after midnight. It's always after midnight. At least where Firemage is concerned.

[Cleretic]

The Sundering being intentional wasn't a retcon, or in-universe characters being wrong or deceitful (which is what happens much more often in this game). It was literally just us as players making an assumption and that assumption being wrong.

[KageTokage]

The only thing that really stood out to me as feeling like a huge retcon was the Echo/Blessing of Light distinction that comes up in Endwalker as it's not given any kind of proper discussion like some other matters such as the properties of light/dark that acknowledged a changed perspective on things.

They're just suddenly going "Your blessing shielded you from tempering" when it had been repeatedly stated up to that point that the Echo was responsible for such, and it made me do a double take. You can argue it's simply an inference made from the limited protection it gave us against the light's corruption in ShB but that's never explicitly brought up at any point unlike several other plot elements.

In its most basic form, a retcon is described as "Reframing or adding to past events to serve a current plot need", so Talonk is technically not incorrect, though the term is most commonly used specifically in reference to events that contradict prior understanding in a way that is not handled smoothly (Like the one I mentioned).

[RyuDragnier]

The only thing that really stood out to me as feeling like a huge retcon was the Echo/Blessing of Light distinction that comes up in Endwalker as it's not given any kind of proper discussion like some other matters such as the properties of light/dark that acknowledged a changed perspective on things.

They're just suddenly going "Your blessing shielded you from tempering" when it had been repeatedly stated up to that point that the Echo was responsible for such, and it made me do a double take. You can argue it's simply an inference made from the limited protection it gave us against the light's corruption in ShB but that's never explicitly brought up at any point unlike several other plot elements.

I feel like I've had this argument with you before, but I'll state it once again. This is not a retcon. The Echo provides resistance against Tempering, and the Blessing is an extra layer of protection on top of it. There is no retcon on the Echo here. It's just the equivalent of a tank using a 30% mitigation on top of a 20% mitigation. The 30% does not mean the 20% does not exist, they STACK.

[KageTokage]

I think the problem is that to my recollection, it's only vaguely suggested once early in ARR that the blessing is offering some manner of shielding against tempering after Ifrit tries and fails, then mentions "sensing the taint of another".

From there on the Echo is only thing that's mentioned until we're being tested in the process of developing the warding scales where it suddenly comes up again as being relevant to tempering.

It forces the player to make so many assumptions to justify it as having been the case all along that it really felt really awkward regardless of whether or not it actually was a retcon, and XIV generally does not do that when it comes to important plot points.

[RyuDragnier]

I don't recall that ever specifically being stated anywhere.

It's acknowledged the blessing helps us fight primals and Ascians, but not the how of it.

So then how is it a retcon of the Echo? Explain to me how the Blessing also protecting against tempering retcons what the Echo does.

[Cleretic]

So then how is it a retcon of the Echo? Explain to me how the Blessing also protecting against tempering retcons what the Echo does.

Because the Echo has been explicitly confirmed to be how people are protected from tempering in other cases. Most explicitly the Resonant-havers, Zenos, Fordola and Misija, who all use a specifically artificial Echo, not the Blessing, to protect against tempering. There's ways they could have squared this, but they didn't (or at least, haven't yet).

I don't see how this is at all related to what was being talked about, but it is what it is.

[RyuDragnier]

Because the Echo has been explicitly confirmed to be how people are protected from tempering in other cases. Most explicitly the Resonant-havers, Zenos, Fordola and Misija, who all use a specifically artificial Echo, not the Blessing, to protect against tempering. There's ways they could have squared this, but they didn't (or at least, haven't yet).

That's why I said the Blessing is merely another protection stacked on top of the Echo. Both do the job, but while others have a single layered shield protecting from lesser forms of it (meaning no protection from elder primals) in the form of the Echo, we have the Blessing stacked on top of that providing tempering resistance from everything (meaning protection from elder primals).

[Cleretic]

That's why I said the Blessing is merely another protection stacked on top of the Echo. Both do the job, but while others have a single layered shield protecting from lesser forms of it (meaning no protection from elder primals) in the form of the Echo, we have the Blessing stacked on top of that providing tempering resistance from everything (meaning protection from elder primals).

Yep, that's how I'd explain it, too.

But let's not pretend they ever said it, in-game or out.

[Rannie]

Well she did say, if I remember correctly, (believe it was while we were sleeping in the Waking Sands before going to Moh Dhona you know when we where waiitng for Y'shtola to show up after we got Cid and the Enterprise back. If it wasnt then it was when we first pass aftet after we get the water one) that after gathering all crystals, that it would be "Thy sword and thy shield".

Worth noting she never once said the Echo was the one the was protecting us when we fight primals either. And the only time people fought primals without a Crystal was in 1.0 and the legacy players from that. It's all been very wishy washy with the whole of the Scions thinking that that it was the Echo itself that protected against tempering. I will say they never fully explained how the exactly copied kriles gifts either.