Paladin needs to be overhauled

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

my point was in reference to fact that i do play pld in which the person assumed i dont, and it does matter if someone is making a compare and contrast opinion

Fair enough.

[1] What good does it do for the team to run around chasing someone who is running away because that is the fight or flight instinct, that would obviously decrease the number of people fighting thereby creating a 3v5 scenario or FL how does the fact that its a gap closer remedy that?

[2] I would say guardian is the exact opposite of broken considering its a damage multiplier for the enemy team, your not only taking damage as the pld but your taking damage for your team mate and in no way does the fallacy of its healing potency make up for the amount of damage output unless its used with LB however even if this comes into play it doesnt negate the fact people still run thereby rendering guardian useless, this is a strawman argument

Cover was great in shb bc you could use it with HG, now that is what i would call broken

Personal opinion for this fix is if the tether is broken then the person should get a residual effect

1.) If your teammate is running away or not utilising the Cover effect properly, that is a skill issue of your teammate and not an issue of Cover. Regarding "how does the fact that its a gap closer remedy that", again - the tether distance is 10y to maintain it, the dash itself is 20y. This means you can reach a teammate out of distance and stick around him to keep the effect running rather than having to walk or Sprint in his direction for it, which costs more time than the dash having animation lock. Arguably at short distance it is annoying, but this is a trade-off to have the longer activation distance.

2.) You are absolutely correct that it is a damage multiplier on you for AOE effects that land on both you and your teammate, which is why it is best practice to use Cover with Phalanx (Hallowed Ground), Guard (-90% dmg taken + CC immunity) or at very least Holy Sheltron (12000 HP barrier and -15% dmg taken). You never Cover without an additional defensive unless you know you can get away with it (like against a single attacker).

So I don't get why you compare it to 5.05 PLD who had Hallowed + Cover, the former being at 60 or 90s recast vs Guard having 30s recast. Cover itself needed charge-up by being active in combat (which happened naturally due to how Feast worked) while Guardian has a 25s recast, regardless of combat time. Guardian -> Guard is a solid combo for the recast it is currently at.

Personally I'd prefer it being replaced with Intervention from 5.1+ as this would free up PLD from having to spend Guard or Phalanx for safe use of Guardian and also would be way less obnoxious on either side to deal with. But that is just my opinion I guess.

Your blades as well as its healing ability is useless when chain stunned or under the affect of another LB this in turn is a cancelation of PLD LB aside from the team mitigation and again its still the weakest in dmg if that weren't the case id agree the 120s would be fair but to say its powerful i think falls into the mass delusion of its LB

You are looking at Phalanx the wrong way. Blade of Valor combo isn't what is strong about it and the Sacred Claim effect more or less benefits your teammates more during this Limit Break than you.

It is the self-invuln and -50% damage reduction on nearby teammates that kicks this Limit Break into S-tier. Putting aside the obvious pairing of Guardian to make one of your players invulnerable at zero risk, it counters various high-value Limit Breaks such as Primal Scream (WAR), Sky Shatter (DRG) and Contradance (DNC) as well as high-end non-LB damage bursts. It is quite literally Tank LB from Feast on steroids, which is why I cannot understand your negative view on this ability.

And to your stun-lock argument, which you seem to bring up more than once - if you get stun-locked during Phalanx, that is up to 10 seconds of people wasting stuns on you, which are stuns most likely not going on your teammates (discounting AOE stuns). That is actually a good thing.

I do appreciate the time and effort put forth in this expansion on damage however it does further illustrates my point in PLD being weaker granted i dont care if it is as i said before even in shb it was still pretty weak if remember correctly it was 3rd out of the tanks, being above WAR but despite this it had better utility and sustainability and bottom line it was fun
it has room for damage give intervene the stun effect and replace shield bash with 2 holy spirit and that would be 10x better than what it is now

Sorry to take your rose-tinted glasses off, but Paladin always had generally the weakest damage / burst contribution value in the Feast days. Warrior brought a lot more damage and a vuln-up combo (Butcher's Block) and after 5.1 it gave enemies +10% damage taken effects via Infuriate skills (more accessible), which was a god-send for your DPS to burst on.

You were always a tank that excelled at defensives, but unlike the other three tanks your defense changed. Pre-5.1 you had Cover, which got nerfed on multiple instances, was the reason why Paladins even took increased damage when attacked directly for using it and also why it had less max HP than other tanks. Post-5.1 you had Intervention, which was high value with less self-risk but you had to pre-emptively mitigate, which was what set apart a good Paladin from a decent one.

To your suggestion - putting Stun on Intervene as they originally intended would make Paladin a lot more powerful than it already is in higher ranks and definitely good in lower ranks, even when Shield Bash is gone. That is a 10s CD on a stun of which you can hold 2. That's kinda broken.

I can see why you want Holy Spirit back, but I genuinely don't see it doing more than 8000 dmg unless there are some conditionals such as Sacred Claim damage bonus.

[RyanCousland]

1.) If your teammate is running away or not utilising the Cover effect properly, that is a skill issue of your teammate and not an issue of Cover. Regarding "how does the fact that its a gap closer remedy that", again - the tether distance is 10y to maintain it, the dash itself is 20y. This means you can reach a teammate out of distance and stick around him to keep the effect running rather than having to walk or Sprint in his direction for it, which costs more time than the dash having animation lock. Arguably at short distance it is annoying, but this is a trade-off to have the longer activation distance.

Cover IS dependent on your teammates skill these are not mutually exclusive thereby making cover THE issue, and when you say "stick around" how exactly do you think that scenario plays out? is PLD doing damage or sacrifices damage for futile attempt to survive? or is the teammate using this opportunity to heal or do damage? how many opponents are there? if you havent played through these scenarios let alone thought about them then i can tell you it always ends with same results, and if what im inferring from your statement that the 20y is a time saver (to an extent) and the tether is 10y to maintain then yeah im aware of that, the running around part i mentioned was in reference to maintain that 10y connection, and my original point to your "remedy" was how does a 20y gap closer animation lock out weigh the time it takes for cover's effect to be useful/activate? (especially if your teammate has any Debuffs/DOTS on them)

[RyanCousland]

2.) You are absolutely correct that it is a damage multiplier on you for AOE effects that land on both you and your teammate, which is why it is best practice to use Cover with Phalanx (Hallowed Ground), Guard (-90% dmg taken + CC immunity) or at very least Holy Sheltron (12000 HP barrier and -15% dmg taken). You never Cover without an additional defensive unless you know you can get away with it (like against a single attacker).

I'm pretty sure i made it clear that im aware of how to use cover, but perhaps i didnt expand in detail the issue with each of these combinations
1: its obvious any PLD would use cover and LB but again cover is useless if it exceeds 10y(and please dont repeat the LB line because this is about cover)
2: Guard and cover is a dps loss as well as a hindrance in mobility
3: HS and cover only works well depending on the matchup of how many opponents youre facing (2v4 is death sentence for PLD with cover because realistically its 1v4)

im aware of PLD toolkit but its seems youre arguments are coming from a perfect play mentality/scenarios in which im not sure how PVP is in EU or JP but in NA it is rarely that
also im not even going to get into the fact that cover is the only skill that cant be used in 1v1

[RyanCousland]

So I don't get why you compare it to 5.05 PLD who had Hallowed + Cover, the former being at 60 or 90s recast vs Guard having 30s recast. Cover itself needed charge-up by being active in combat (which happened naturally due to how Feast worked) while Guardian has a 25s recast, regardless of combat time. Guardian -> Guard is a solid combo for the recast it is currently at.

My comparison was in response to you saying cover now is "broken" when compared to pre 6.1, HG + cover had the invul as well as the mobility that is currently lacking

[RyanCousland]

You are looking at Phalanx the wrong way. Blade of Valor combo isn't what is strong about it and the Sacred Claim effect more or less benefits your teammates more during this Limit Break than you.

It is the self-invuln and -50% damage reduction on nearby teammates that kicks this Limit Break into S-tier. Putting aside the obvious pairing of Guardian to make one of your players invulnerable at zero risk, it counters various high-value Limit Breaks such as Primal Scream (WAR), Sky Shatter (DRG) and Contradance (DNC) as well as high-end non-LB damage bursts. It is quite literally Tank LB from Feast on steroids, which is why I cannot understand your negative view on this ability.

Name me another LB in which you can disregard half of its utility/purpose because thats what this response sounds like however i might be wrong in inferring also Contradance is a counter not the other way around much like RPR
And the idea that this LB is S tier is misnomer if it were the case then there would be more PLD players but there is not, aside from the Onsal period
PLD is at the bottom in terms of player usage

[RyanCousland]

And to your stun-lock argument, which you seem to bring up more than once - if you get stun-locked during Phalanx, that is up to 10 seconds of people wasting stuns on you, which are stuns most likely not going on your teammates (discounting AOE stuns). That is actually a good thing.

I bring it up all the time because i get the same response ....all....the...time,even your reply can be found if you scroll up but in other words lets gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb, is that your point? because theres multiple scenarios in which using chain stun method on the Lamb doesnt move the needle for W or has the opposite result for a L

[RyanCousland]

Sorry to take your rose-tinted glasses off, but Paladin always had generally the weakest damage / burst contribution value in the Feast days. Warrior brought a lot more damage and a vuln-up combo (Butcher's Block) and after 5.1 it gave enemies +10% damage taken effects via Infuriate skills (more accessible), which was a god-send for your DPS to burst on.

not sure if you were trying to go for a dunk on me but ok PLD was the weakest pre 6.1 confirmed but again im not advocating for higher dps and as before even tho it was the weakest in shb it was better than it is now, just because i point out that its the weakest doesnt mean it needs to be buffed but it should have an equal trade off which it doesnt

[RyanCousland]

You were always a tank that excelled at defensives, but unlike the other three tanks your defense changed. Pre-5.1 you had Cover, which got nerfed on multiple instances, was the reason why Paladins even took increased damage when attacked directly for using it and also why it had less max HP than other tanks. Post-5.1 you had Intervention, which was high value with less self-risk but you had to pre-emptively mitigate, which was what set apart a good Paladin from a decent one.

cover was better back then also because of the healing of holy circle or as i said before HG whereas today you have no aoe except confeti to balance a multi assault i could go on about it but it seems you know already

[RyanCousland]

To your suggestion - putting Stun on Intervene as they originally intended would make Paladin a lot more powerful than it already is in higher ranks and definitely good in lower ranks, even when Shield Bash is gone. That is a 10s CD on a stun of which you can hold 2. That's kinda broken.
I can see why you want Holy Spirit back, but I genuinely don't see it doing more than 8000 dmg unless there are some conditionals such as Sacred Claim damage bonus.

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

[Valence]

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

Shieldbash's pro compared to Primal Rend is that one is instant, the other one has an insane animation delay and is also used for WAR's primary damage output. Shieldbash performs a lot better at securing kills, while Primal Rend is better at applying team pressure. They're not used exactly identically, and both shine at different things. I could see how one would see shieldbash as inferior if they're not using it to specifically hit targets out of resources in the shins when it will make them dead with a 99% probability.