Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[SaitoHikari]

The major context that is missing from all the WoW anecdotes is that WoW and the majority of other MMOs are largely raid-focused games. Raiding is literally perceived as the only activity of value in such games. There are many MMOs without officially supported parsing or a culture of raiding not reliant on them that still manage to be toxic as hell. From what I understand, WoW's parsing isn't officially supported either, but that community suffers from a complete lack of any decent moderation whatsoever.

FFXIV has managed an entire decade without falling to such depravity, regardless of whatever impact the current situation around parsing is. The major difference is the overall community mentality and how the gameplay flow is designed. I was a top-end raider in my previous MMO, Dragon Nest, and the kind of shit I saw in there (without any culture of parsing, as such tools didn't exist for that game) made me want to throw that game's entire PvE scene into the nearest volcano by the time I decided to quit for FFXIV. I also tried raiding in Lost Ark before I got the impression that it'd go the same way as Dragon Nest in the long term. Incidentally, both games have aggressively stupid gearing systems, so what passes as a skilled player could really just be a measure of how well geared you are (but of course people wouldn't admit to such a thing), as opposed to FFXIV where numbers are so tightly crunched that a player's contribution really is a measure of player skill and party coordination above all.

There probably is one thing I can absolutely blame parsing for in FFXIV though, and it's probably not what most people in here expect. There was a period of time during Stormblood where people were very judgmental about what classes you were playing as. What happened? FFLogs started calculating player contribution based on what party buffs and debuffs you brought to the table. Any increase in damage that another party member gained from any buffs and debuffs were additionally attributed to the player who was the source of said buff/debuffs. The 'Raid DPS' and 'Personal DPS' metric (though I could be wrong on exactly what they're called nowadays, I haven't stepped foot onto that site for 3 years now). It was an eye-opening look into just how powerful buffs and debuffs were in FFXIV. But the community took the data too far - people got so stupid over this that the selfish DPS such as Samurai and Black Mages were actively shunned from raid groups due to not possessing any party buffs (not to mention top-tier Bards frequently topping the charts in most optimized parties because of their crit scaling back in that era).

How did SE respond? They gutted the shit out of party buffs and debuffs in Shadowbringers, and we've only continued on this path of ever decreasing class complexity and loss of individual class identity ever since. Granted, a lot of it has also been done in the name of accessibility, which also brings up a different argument in support of parsing. One could say that the lack of officially supported parsing has put SE in a spot where they are more willing to redesign and overhaul certain classes with each expansion, rather than let the community grapple with the idea that they should try to improve themselves instead. Though imposing the latter idea without parsing isn't an easy task, perhaps even impossible.

Matter of fact, you can go talk to Ray Bradbury, who PREDICTED this decades ago. Fahrenheit 451.

Read the book. Montag lives.

Then go read Toffler. Future Shock.

I recently went back and read both of them...how they knew what was coming is still unbelievable.

You know it's time to get off the forums and take a walk outside if you have to resort to using literature/political commentary in an argument about numbers on a video game forum.

[hagare]

Don't mind Firemage. If you're new to M+, there are a couple ways to pretty quickly make things easier for yourself.

you mean the perfect example of why parsers should never be added to the game?
xD

[FireMage]

you mean the perfect example of why parsers should never be added to the game?
xD

Actually what that person posted was a perfect example of why they should. Someone was not contributing appropriately, and was removed as they deserved to be. System working as it absolutely should be

[hagare]

Actually what that person posted was a perfect example of why they should. Someone was not contributing appropriately, and was removed as they deserved to be. System working as it absolutely should be

I rest my case

[VelKallor]

Which topic are you even on at this point? Is it still just "calculators are toxic" or are we into "machined arithmetic = Big Brother" territory? Something being able to do addition for you is not grounds for Toffler's "information overload." Nor is it a dystopian scenario based largely on a purging of information as within 451

Youve never read the book, have you? If you had, then maybe the next time you see someone with their nose buried in their phone, you will get it.

Information overload? The book isnt even THAT long, LMAO.

[FireMage]

I rest my case

You have no case. Your case requires proof that I am toxic, and you can't prove an impossible circumstance. You are dismissed

[Curisu]

This discussion still goes on?

A in-game parser will not make others better and only enables toxic behaviour.

Best example is WoW, a parser is a must have there but you still have people who refuse to play their class correctly, even in a raid environment.
And on the other hand you have these people who harass other in easy casual content for their DMG, no matter if it's a new player on a unknown class.

[Shurrikhan]

It was an eye-opening look into just how powerful buffs and debuffs were in FFXIV. But the community took the data too far - people got so stupid over this that the selfish DPS such as Samurai and Black Mages were actively shunned from raid groups due to not possessing any party buffs (not to mention top-tier Bards frequently topping the charts in most optimized parties because of their crit scaling back in that era).

How did SE respond? They gutted the shit out of party buffs and debuffs in Shadowbringers, and we've only continued on this path of ever decreasing class complexity and loss of individual class identity ever since. Granted, a lot of it has also been done in the name of accessibility, which also brings up a different argument in support of parsing. One could say that the lack of officially supported parsing has put SE in a spot where they are more willing to redesign and overhaul certain classes with each expansion, rather than let the community grapple with the idea that they should try to improve themselves instead. Though imposing the latter idea without parsing isn't an easy task, perhaps even impossible.

The funny thing is that if they still designed fights at least occasionally to offer features of indirect (not directly calculable) advantage (think Cover, etc.)... then there would actually be more to the game than just rDPS and aDPS.

But, no, they decided to trim the game down and down to literally just damage and whatever as directly and reliably as possible converts to it. (And it's not even a kind that differs "burst" from "sustained" except in that "burst" damage also does more damage overall, since there are no advantages to the less bursty jobs, nor particularly threatening short-term DPS checks to feature "burst" jobs despite any total damage advantages for the "sustained" ones. Given that, what other course would the community have reasonably taken?)

Now, why we somehow fell to the point that just because rDPS became the default metric (wherein party-independent comparisons become harder to make between buffers instead of between exploiters [the "selfish" jobs], instead of the inverse, and equal rDPS exploiters could still provide greatly significantly contributions to total party DPS [see the difference previously between PLD and DRK on their neck-and-neck fights/parses]) it became the only one that people cared about when aDPS, too, was right there to help inform the fuller picture... idk. That takes a special kind of self-imposed ignorance, especially for any claiming to be interested in that degree of optimization.

[FireMage]

This discussion still goes on?

A in-game parser will not make others better and only enables toxic behaviour.

It actually curbs toxic behavior, or at least having to put up with it. Finding out who isn't contributing appropriately and then removing them would be taking care of actual toxic behavior. Also saying it wouldn't make people better is beyond wrong, it's down right dangerous misinformation

[Shurrikhan]

Youve never read [Toffler's Future Shock], have you?

Information overload? The book isnt even THAT long, LMAO.

...Oh the irony.