Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[VelKallor]

Now this as well.

https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/07/t...xic-by-nature/

Dev at Saga of Lucimia located here

https://www.embersadrift.com/

Tim Anderson
2 years ago
We will not be including them in the Saga of Lucimia for pretty much the same reasons the FFXIV crew won’t include them.

There is an undeniable, immutable and absolute connection between the public use of dps meters and the kind of toxic, abusive behaviour that will inevitably result. On those terms, for those reasons, I support and agree with the SE teams decision to not allow them to be publically used and / or hardcoded into FF 14

The end.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

The day that SE allows dps meters ingame, in less than 24 hours you will have "that guy" spamming dps meters and screaming abuse.................in Sastasha.

Oh man...those poor N00bs.
I know for sure IF I was unlucky enough to get "that guy" it would have turned me off from FFXIV and MMOs in general.

I both agree that DPS meters themselves are not the issue, but rather the people that may use them to be abusive.
But also we should just curb the idea all together to avoid the obvious inevitability that they WILL be used and be abused.

Hmm...maybe a Middleground could be made where it only reads the user? That way its literally just for self improvement.
Maybe?

[Semirhage]

And yet harassment is *still* against the TOS. "It's going to lead to abuse!" is code for "I don't want to possibly be embarrassed by my numbers". "Harassment" is hysteria. It's -against the TOS-.

[VelKallor]

Ashes of Creation

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed.[1] – Steven Sharif

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

And yet harassment is *still* against the TOS. "It's going to lead to abuse!" is code for "I don't want to possibly be embarrassed by my numbers". "Harassment" is hysteria. It's -against the TOS-.

I mean.....you're Half Right. XD

[Shurrikhan]

Now this as well.

Literally reads "we’ve all met that group who harassed somebody over deeps. But then again, I also saw plenty of player toxicity about combat when nobody had even dreamed up the idea of parsers yet. And sometimes being able to monitor your own performance and rotations is tremendously helpful when testing a new character or build."

Tim Anderson
2 years ago
We will not be including them in the Saga of Lucimia for pretty much the same reasons the FFXIV crew won’t include them.

His being a dev doesn't make his opinions infallible, or even necessarily reasonable. Have you heard of Hazzikostas? Or for that matter, Yoshida?

[VelKallor]

His being a dev doesn't make his opinions infallible

And yet thats at least two MMO's..make that three, if you include FF 14, that have said a flat NO to dps meters. I was pleasantly surprised, actually, seeing as Ashes is still in developement, but not so surprised as the MMO genre as a whole seems to be waking up to the dps meter toxicity issues, and taking a stand.

He is infallible as its HIS MMO, and HIS game, and HIS decision. Same for Ashes, Steven is the lead developer and director.

And sometimes being able to monitor your own performance and rotations is tremendously helpful when testing a new character or build."

The proven causation between dps meters and enabling toxic behaviour cannot be dismissed or ignored.

Shurrikhan: it boils down to this simple fact

If it can be abused or misused..it will be. Even you cannot deny it.

Edit: remember that video a while back? You dont have to watch, just listen, but I do recommend it. I do have..albeit few now...some contacts and links inside gaming companies, one of the emails I got mentioned what MAY become a fundamental shift in MMO gameplay and design, whether it comes in a few years or later, no one can say, however one undercurrent I am hearing repeated is that that concept of 'instrumental play" - that has undeniably come at a large cost to social interaction and community cohesion - may be one they will be moving away from.

That FF 14 and Ashes alone have both made the same decision, I dont actually believe is a coincidence, and MIGHT be a new trend in design, shifting from the competitive edge / bias and more to do with re emphasising the social aspect (which I might add,. a lot of MMO players say is missing or has been 'lost" in the process. )

I cannot say for certain, I dont actually know either yet...tbh what I am seeing are changes that MAY represent future dynamics in MMO design...a possible paradigm shift.

We will see.

[Mihari]

ands now lets look at WOW....\

I have played the new WoW Dragonflight addon over the christmas holidays and were also in many Mythic+ Dungeons and also the Raid. I have rarely experienced such a toxic and unfriendly community.

The players were only looking into there different mod and addons (DPS Meter, Boss Mods, Mythic+ Tools ....) and when a player is not good enough, the group members gets in rage. I had it many, many times, that others or I were kicked from the group during the dungeon because we made less damage for the rest of the group members or the group was disbanded after the first death or when the run was too slow. At the end, I was very frustrated about the group behaviour in WoW and stopped playing dungeons and the raid at all.

In the meantime, I didn't renew my subscription for WoW and I don't want to experience such a community (only focused on numbers and in rage) anymore. That's why I'm against such tools in FFXIV and it would be a reason to cancel my subscription also in FFXIV.

[Shurrikhan]

it boils down to this simple fact

it can be abused or misused..it will be. Even you cannot deny it.

Then remove all other player interactions? Every single function of multiplayer has the ability to be misused.

You're making the same case as those saying that that smart phones are inherently bad because people might use them for several hours a day instead of playing outside, leading to repetitive motion injury or obesity -- never mind that those most addicted to their phones would already have been using their computers and an almost identical, if not (by their measure) worse, change would have occurred under a proliferation of equally cheap highly portable laptops (just with that differently-social time allotted a bit differently).

The risk of a given tool is the difference between how much it and competing tools can be used for a bad purpose or to what difference in result when one pursues that purpose. What blame can rightly be placed on any tool or technology or technique is solely in what new behaviors, or degrees thereof, it facilitated in excess of what was done previously.

Here, the results are identical. There is no difference between your harassing someone over their using ice magic only in a Savage raid (which is a pretty damn good indicator of not meeting minimal expectations and unfairly forcing everyone else to carry your weight) or harassing someone over doing less than a third of what performance would be needed to clear the SSS for the given fight. Both are harassment. There is no difference between those and if you had put on a blindfold, spun about 7 times, and decided who to harass based on proximity to the aim of your finger. There is no difference between those and if a raspy-voiced kid once beat you as a child and so you decided to go batshit on someone for having a raspy voice. It does not matter what you did previously, how you arrived at the decision of "I want to hurt this person emotionally," nor what information you had or were denied. All are identically harassment. All are identically punished.

What varies between them --the accuracy and precision to which one has informed themselves of the given circumstance before deciding not to resolve it anyways and to instead pursue a lengthy to permanent ban-- is irrelevant to their effect on others. That one replaces checking performance with instead hiking up ilvl requirements and barring off-meta jobs just for the smallest extra hope of getting a decent group despite current policies seeming intended to specifically advantage whoever is the most shameless... is likewise irrelevant to their effect on others. When you cross the line, you have crossed the line. It does not matter if how many senses or bases of information were permitted prior to one person deciding they disliked another enough to soon after be removed from the game as not to see them again.

If someone intends to harass someone, they will. A parser makes no difference to the reach, the responsiveness, or convenience available to those who want to harass others. Toothpaste is not 'a deadly weapon that ought to be banned' no matter how bad a way to go flouride poisoning may be because it's no easier nor compelling a means of murder than any of the several hundred thousand others.

On the other hand, purposely obfuscating performance does not reduce the number of times performance falls short enough to create a conflict; instead, it and sanctions against anyone being thus informed tends to make social mountains out of molehills by further splitting the playerbase and sowing discord between the sides thus created. The divide the current policies create have generated more toxicity than parsers themselves (i.e., a calculator being able to auto-tally numbers, not the whole of human nature that far predates any such tool) ever have.

I have played the new WoW Dragonflight addon over the christmas holidays and were also in many Mythic+ Dungeons and also the Raid. I have rarely experienced such a toxic and unfriendly community.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

A counter-anecdote, if I may, as someone who's been running M+ since it came out in Legion (6 years ago):

Personally, I have yet to see that but thrice in the last 6 years of running M+. Both times the low damage numbers were told to shape up were when those doing low damage were also the ones dying in the course of nearly PKing the group. In all three, the group was slightly in over its head, attempting keys less than half the party had done any of the prior difficulty level for. Now, to be fair, some of that relative lack of conflict may come from the simple fact that such discussion/confrontation has especially little value in that mode; one cannot replace lost or kicked members nor get any value for one's time spent thus far until the clear, as there is no per-boss loot.

Non-Mythic raiding, on the other hand, has been a slightly different story, in that it's a longer commitment and so it more behooves people to vet and adjust their 10-30-man PuGs as needed to reduce the stress and/or meet the interests of the average member of that PuG, which does sometimes mean kicking people over its performance; however, I still have yet to see any fretting about numbers over, say, mechanics. People would typically start yelling to save CDs or hold Lust for a singular hard DPS check, or even to adjust strategies for better uptime, long, long before they kick people over anything but egregious shortages in overall damage (the kinds that would guarantee a wipe to enrage in the given content, or often even the difficulty level lower).

On the other hand, despite parsers not being legal here, I have seen probably a dozen cases of harassment over performance, dozens of silent kicks and cases where a single wipe or two meant an immediate disband, and have frequently seen advice tactfully and kindly given met with such vitriol (including threats to try and have the person banned for parsing, despite that not being remotely required to notice that no AoEs or CDs were being used) that I doubt anyone could warrant such attempts to help against further similar responses.

[VelKallor]

A parser makes no difference to the reach, the responsiveness, or convenience available to those who want to harass others.

A fundamental disconnect, right here.

That you would dismiss out of hand the very valid fact that parsers ENABLE toxic behaviour, a trend and fact that has been proven correct time and again, is where you are wrong.

never mind that those most addicted to their phones would already have been using their computers and an almost identical, if not (by their measure) worse, change would have occurred under a proliferation of equally cheap highly portable laptops (just with that differently-social time allotted a bit differently).

I am yet to see someone run over in the middle of the road carrying a desktop PC..

There are now THREE MMOS's that have literally put their foot down and said a flat no to parsers, if you had read my previous post, it points to the fact that FF 14 now isnt the only game to take this stance, and that more may follow...they have all come to the same consensus, the same conclusion.

Will this be a trend? We dont know yet.