Give us back the old Paladin

[Riion]

On old PLD during non req window, you were practically just refreshing your dots making sure you got two under FOF, doing 1, 2, 3, Atone(3x), I feel like FOF really didn't make PLD feel "distinct" you'd practically be doing the same rotation if we had old PLD but they removed FOF.

Not saying I didn't enjoy PLD overall but the second burst (fof) was hardly anything interesting.

I see what you're saying, but if we look at the non-Requiescat rotation, I think there was plenty of variation. You had a Goring Blade combo, Royal authority combo, and Atonement combo. To me, that's far more varied and interesting than Royal Authority combo, Holy Spirit, Atonement combo...repeat. Even granted the fact you can shift things around a bit more with the new rotation, it still feels boring and uninspired. And it blows my mind that the optimal rotation requires that you drop two Atonements now.

[Rithy255]

I see what you're saying, but if we look at the non-Requiescat rotation, I think there was plenty of variation. You had a Goring Blade combo, Royal authority combo, and Atonement combo. To me, that's far more varied and interesting than Royal Authority combo, Holy Spirit, Atonement combo...repeat. Even granted the fact you can shift things around a bit more with the new rotation, it still feels boring and uninspired. And it blows my mind that the optimal rotation requires that you drop two Atonements now.

I think they need to make adjustments, I personally think they could even make goring blade apart of your combo again by just doing what warrior does (yeah copying but at least it's more interesting then what current goring blade does). I also think current Fight or flight is so pointless right now, you literally spend it with your burst with req, I'm also kinda hoping atonement is reduced down to 2 uses or just does something different, it shouldn't also break your basic combo.

I just feel like Divine might and a shorter req were great changes to me that it actually makes the job feel pretty interesting still, the job generally is going in a good direction In my mind they just missed the mark by quite a bit.

[Payadopa]

So it's good that a ability is just Inconsistent, for a worse shake it off? the changes were to make it more useable in all types of content and less annoying to use, Divine veil works with other players it's a raid wide it protects/heals them, having a ability that expects a GCD heal and is clunky to use outside of req, it's not really "unique" like a lot of people say, it's just worse.

How is it inconsistent, though? You use it, you get healed, it pops. Every time. All I see is yet another unique aspect being sanded off so all tanks feel more samey. And the justification is blah, blah, blah ma numbers. It's getting old. Every role needs to be boring, hands tied.

[Mikey_R]

And it blows my mind that the optimal rotation requires that you drop two Atonements now.

From The Balance Discord, you can use whatever you want in the buff window (assuming you still use Goring Blade and the Confiteor combo) and it is practically a 0 DPS loss over the 1 minute loop (dropping Atonements) or the 2 minute loop (hard casting Holy Spirits). So, if you really want to, you can use all of your Atonements without worry.

[Kemeko]

I've tried all sorts of solutions, 2 atonement, longer and shorter req stacks. None of them worked cause they still created rotation jank. The only competent solution I came up with was using Shield Bash as a shortcut to finishers becoming a (1-3) combo which would allow the rotation to short a gcd wherever you want, making it more flexible. Balances shorting the combo vs a normal combo which would restore mp and allow better usage of Divine Might stacks. It also matches the Paladin identity as well as the Gladiator level 30 job quest cutscene.

[Rithy255]

How is it inconsistent, though? You use it, you get healed, it pops. Every time. All I see is yet another unique aspect being sanded off so all tanks feel more samey. And the justification is blah, blah, blah ma numbers. It's getting old. Every role needs to be boring, hands tied.

Unique? sure, good No? Unique doesn't always mean good, It would be very *unique* if a tank didn't have it's 30% CD it was instead a 25% CD didn't work until a healer gave them a GCD heal but it wouldn't be fun or Interesting. Dark Mind is sure Unique? certainly love how unique it feels in aoe or physical because it doesn't work, oath filling on auto attacks sure is "unique".

It's inconsistent in any content that isn't a static raid group, you really don't know if your healer is going to use a GCD heal considering they try to avoid that, so a lot of the time you have its effect not even used at the right time, your dependent on another player to use your tanking CD, sure Holy spirit and your magic blades combo can use it but you better hope your magic window also lines up with your uses of divine veil, I don't really find that the "good" type of unique.

Justification is blah blah, it's unique! Not everything that is unique is automatically a good thing, I'd actually like meaningful differences in PLD's defensive kit, I think oath gauge needs to be more interactive with the Job. I want actual meaningful differences not clunky outdated CD's that get defended for the sake of being unique.

[Riion]

From The Balance Discord, you can use whatever you want in the buff window (assuming you still use Goring Blade and the Confiteor combo) and it is practically a 0 DPS loss over the 1 minute loop (dropping Atonements) or the 2 minute loop (hard casting Holy Spirits). So, if you really want to, you can use all of your Atonements without worry.

I've seen it, and I'm skeptical of that. Filling those 3 'free' GCDs with anything other than a buffed Holy Spirit -> Royal Authority -> Buffed Holy Spirit is going to lead to an overall dps loss. So to ensure that you get that in a 60 sec loop, you need to drop two Atonments, given a 2.5 gcd.

Edit: Though as I think about it more, perhaps not dropping those two Atonments may help to smooth things out since dropping Atonments in and of itself is a dps loss. Something to consider.

[DoubleOneOne]

Should Dark Missionary, Shake it off and Heart of Light also have activation conditions more than just pressing a button?

IDK the other tank cooldowns do... I enjoyed that PLD required more thought defensively.

This game has no DPS meter, so I enjoy optimizing my defensives. The feeling I get from Viel being easier to use probably is the same as simplifying a damage minded player's rotation. Imagine if Mudras were removed from NIN or if BLM infinite MP.

Point being, if you want the skill floor to be lower cool, not fighting anyone about that. However, removing/ lowering the skill ceiling to do so piss off anyone who bothered to learn the skill.

[Mikey_R]

I've seen it, and I'm skeptical of that. Filling those 3 'free' GCDs with anything other than a buffed Holy Spirit -> Royal Authority -> Buffed Holy Spirit is going to lead to an overall dps loss. So to ensure that you get that in a 60 sec loop, you need to drop two Atonments, given a 2.5 gcd.

Edit: Though as I think about it more, perhaps not dropping those two Atonments may help to smooth things out since dropping Atonments in and of itself is a dps loss. Something to consider.

I done some quick calculations and comparing the burst for the ideal one and the worst one (inclucing the 2 GCDs just before) nets these results:

Ideal (2 DHS in FoF, Fast > Riot just before burst) total potency: 7080
Worst case (DHS/Fast/Riot in FoF, 2 Atonements before buff window) total potency: 6922.5

The difference here is a 2.3% lower damage output, however, not every buff window will end up that way. Most will likely have a DHS and 2 of either Atonement or Royal Authority, which just brings up the potency of the buff window and so lowers the damage lost.

As you also rightly said, dropping 2 atonements is quite a potency loss. Just dropping 2 in 2 minutes is 4 lost in total which is 1520 potency just dropped. Compare that to the lowest potency those are replaced by (Fast > Riot > Royal > Aton) for a total of 1240.

Together then, the 2 DHS drops 1520 potency but gains back 1240 potency, for a loss of 280 potency every 2 minutes, which, if you check the difference in the potency for the buff window, that is ~160 potency every minute, or ~320 potency, so, over 2 minutes, you have dropped 40 potency, or, 20 potency per minute between the 2. Considering the snippets of potency I have already shown don't even come close to the potency in a minute, 20 potency is not noticeable. Of course, this is not including raid buffs, which will technically make the 2 DHS stronger, but remember, I have shown the extreme case, so it is always going to be closer than what I have indicated here.

IDK the other tank cooldowns do... I enjoyed that PLD required more thought defensively.

This game has no DPS meter, so I enjoy optimizing my defensives. The feeling I get from Viel being easier to use probably is the same as simplifying a damage minded player's rotation. Imagine if Mudras were removed from NIN or if BLM infinite MP.

Point being, if you want the skill floor to be lower cool, not fighting anyone about that. However, removing/ lowering the skill ceiling to do so piss off anyone who bothered to learn the skill.

How can you optimise your defensives if your defensives aren't predictable?

Also, Mudras and BLM MP is not a good comparison. They are both things that are directly controlled by the jobs themselves and are easily predictable. Now, with Divine Veil, you can plan to proc it at a certain time, maybe midway through a repeated stack attack, you use it early so that it can come off of cooldown earlier, you have your Holy Spirit ready to proc it at the right time, but the healer decides they want to Medica 2, Aspected Helios, Succor or Eukraisian Prognosis to help with healing and mitigation, but wait, that has just proced the shield early. It was meant to come midway through so that you got some extra healing and a shield to help mitigate the next hit.

And that is just one example of where it is not consistent, I'm sure plenty of people could think of other scenarios where it can be activated early. The point is, yes, Veil is easier to use, however, it is less clunky and since you can properly control when it goes out, you have a better chance of optimising your defensives. If you care about optimising anything, unpredictability is your worst enemy.

[DoubleOneOne]

Unique? sure, good No? Unique doesn't always mean good, It would be very *unique* if a tank didn't have it's 30% CD it was instead a 25% CD didn't work until a healer gave them a GCD heal but it wouldn't be fun or Interesting. Dark Mind is sure Unique? certainly love how unique it feels in aoe or physical because it doesn't work, oath filling on auto attacks sure is "unique".

It's inconsistent in any content that isn't a static raid group, you really don't know if your healer is going to use a GCD heal considering they try to avoid that, so a lot of the time you have its effect not even used at the right time, your dependent on another player to use your tanking CD, sure Holy spirit and your magic blades combo can use it but you better hope your magic window also lines up with your uses of divine veil, I don't really find that the "good" type of unique.

Justification is blah blah, it's unique! Not everything that is unique is automatically a good thing, I'd actually like meaningful differences in PLD's defensive kit, I think oath gauge needs to be more interactive with the Job. I want actual meaningful differences not clunky outdated CD's that get defended for the sake of being unique.

OKAY, unique is now a curse word. Both sides need to stop using it.

Your points about Veil are valid in a 6.2 PLD world, but our rotation changed.... in 6.3 veil can be up at any time with the 6.2 triggers. The longest I've seen any logical rotation go without pressing a self heal is 15s and Veil lasts for 30s.

Are healer bubbles bad because people can walk out of them? Would it be better if they followed a target for their duration?

You say you like meaningful differences in PLD but not Veil. What differences do you want then?

I don't think anyone likes PLD's gauge, and Clemency and Cover have no real use cases in any standard full party comp beyond playing for healer LB3.