The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

Shurrikhan - Since this discussion is happening in other places (here and on ffxivdiscussion) related to another Job; extra niche buttons aren't a problem. PLD has Shield Bash, which actually has a use in Deep Dungeons. If you were asking for extra buttons that people legitimately don't have to interact with if they don't want to, this would be a different discussion.

Shield Bash IS a good example of added complexity that isn't required.

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Ty - I'm trying not to respond to you until you stop the sniping, but when someone says I just want carries, yes, that is a personal attack on my character, not a reasoned rebuttal to my arguments or a cordial statement on healer overall gameplay. Can you admit that?

EDIT: Indeed, re-read your own post! Those aren't reasoned arguments or cordial comments on the state of healer play.

"becomes a novel on how everyone else in the room is crazy""No one understands that you're the hero here"
"No one else can see the light, but you can."
"ultimately, a tantrum of someone who is unwilling to yield an inch."

(This last one is the most absurd one - I'm willing to yield 75% of healers to you! That's a hell of a lot more than an inch. Meanwhile, what are you willing to yield here? What are you proposing yielding to me and those like me? Literally nothing other than people who don't like it can "be bad". When you aren't outright telling them to quit the game, that is. You do recall you did that earlier in this discussion, do you not? How you could even type that seriously is beyond me. If I was "unwilling to yield an inch", I'd be arguing that NONE of the healers change and that healing as a whole never change, either. Neither of which I've done. That is what "unwilling to yield an inch" looks like. Willing to yield 75% is not only willing to yield an inch, it's offering you a compromise that is more than fair and more than tilted to your benefit. That statement of yours is absurd to the point of farce by even a cursory examination of this discussion and our expressed viewpoints, as well as highly hypocritical, given your own unyielding position and statements. If you meant it legitimately, you need to reexamine your entire understanding of this discussion.)

I could go on, but tell me which of those is a cordial comment on the state of healer play and not an attack on me? I suppose that's the reason you agree with Semirhage. Because you are engaging in the same kind of petty insult as a substitute for argument.

(Seriously though, I could go through that entire post you made and rebut every point. There's no point, since you won't listen anyway and will go on as if your points weren't contested. But it wouldn't even be difficult since my own posts and position already have done so, you just ignored that, too.)

"And that is not me putting words in your mouth."

...audacious of you to say this, as that's exactly what it is you did. Perhaps a bit of Freudian slip there as subconsciously, even you realized it was exactly what you were doing.

You cannot use "deductive reasoning" to determine people's positions when people are outright telling you what their positions are, and they do not agree with your supposed deduction. When people tell you what they believe, believe them. Further, deductive reasoning does not, in fact, support or dictate that conclusion.

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But anyway, again, not to hammer the point but...it is what it is:

This is the way FFXIV is. You guys aren't getting what you want.

And you certainly won't get it with that uncompromising, unyielding position you have. Yoshi P clearly does not want to alienate people playing healers now moreso than people already are, nor drive anyone away from the role. Your proposals would do those things, so he's not going to do them. You can argue all you want the role will bleed people if it doesn't change, but it will lose people if it changes the way you want, and likely more people. You have no way of knowing.

If you want to have any shot at such changes, you have to be willing to yield and compromise and embrace solutions like mine as ways to get at least something you want.

Because the alternatives here aren't "you get all of what you want" or "you give up 1 thing you want". The choices are "you give up 1 or some things you want" vs "you get nothing".

[ty_taurus]

Shurrikhan - Since this discussion is happening in other places (here and on ffxivdiscussion) related to another Job; extra niche buttons aren't a problem. PLD has Shield Bash, which actually has a use in Deep Dungeons. If you were asking for extra buttons that people legitimately don't have to interact with if they don't want to, this would be a different discussion.

WHM getting an expansion of DPS actions are also actions that you legitimately don't have to interact with if you don't want to. If we use Mario as a reference as you did prior, a common criticism of Super Mario Sunshine was the removal of the long jump introduced in Super Mario 64. The long jump was a very well-utilized tool for many speed runners, and the addition of FLUDD, while nice in its own ways, didn't supplement the loss of that flexible mobility. Our arguments are akin to that of the players who criticized that and wanted the restoration of the long jump, or the addition of new tools that filled that void. But you've interpreted these arguments as demanding official Mario games become Kaizo Mario, where high-skill precision and platforming are requirements to progress through the game.

Having the option to improve your gameplay is not an expectation that you will perform to that level or fail content. The only environments where the refusal to engage with those additional components would threaten you with failure would be savage and ultimate difficulty content--content that is designed to be a challenge for players to surmount, and even that's not entirely true as savage and ultimate do not require 99% optimization or greater. There is room for error. The more your team gears, the more you can comfortably get away with. 95% of the rest of the game barely cares that you're breathing.

Ty - I'm trying not to respond to you until you stop the sniping, but when someone says I just want carries, yes, that is a personal attack on my character, not a reasoned rebuttal to my arguments or a cordial statement on healer overall gameplay. Can you admit that?

EDIT: Indeed, re-read your own post! Those aren't reasoned arguments or cordial comments on the state of healer play.

"becomes a novel on how everyone else in the room is crazy"
"No one understands that you're the hero here"
"No one else can see the light, but you can."
"ultimately, a tantrum of someone who is unwilling to yield an inch."

An attack of your character would be me saying things like "you're stupid!" "you're an asshole" "you're the worst gamer I've ever met" which to clarify are not things I think. If I'm being honest, I do find you frustrating to speak with, but you probably find me frustrating to speak with. And that's fine.

That first paragraph is a summarization of your actions throughout this thread. It's not me attacking you, it's me explaining the behavior you've displayed here. That's not an attack. It's not an attack to say that someone's throwing a tantrum when they're throwing a tantrum. If you don't like that, well I'm sorry to say but it's a result of your own actions. If you don't want people telling you that you've thrown a tantrum, then don't throw a tantrum.

Saying you just want carries is not an attack. As I said, it's deductive reasoning. I said it before: if you didn't want to be carried, then you'd be fine with these suggestions. The gameplay you want would still be there. What upsets you is that it no longer becomes the best way to play even though that doesn't actually matter in almost every aspect of this game. Going back to that Mario example, what reason could you have to be upset about others wanting the long jump if you don't want to use it? Just don't use the long jump if you don't like the long jump. You can still beat the game.

I could go on, but tell me which of those is a cordial comment on the state of healer play and not an attack on me?

All of it. I've done nothing but describe your behavior and explain what I and several others have deduced is your intention based on how you respond when people tell you that your playstyle would still exist and you could still play the way you want to play. If you find any of this as an attack, it's because you are unhappy with your own actions, whether you recognize that or not.

You cannot use "deductive reasoning" to determine people's positions when people are outright telling you what their positions are, and they do not agree with your supposed deduction. When people tell you what they believe, believe them. Further, deductive reasoning does not, in fact, support or dictate that conclusion.

If this is true, then it must really suck to be a detective.

"We believe you have probably cause for killing Mrs. Stanson."
"No I don't."
"Okay, I guess you're free to go."

[ForsakenRoe]

damn i should have just stayed in bed huh

just re-mentioning that my WHM rework, with the Banish and the 'deal damage, charge gauge, get big aoe heal, refunds itself via cool looking Quake/Flood/Tornado' has the option of 'spam glare, refresh Dia every 12s' (mimicking current rotation, but adjusted for Dia duration change) at 98% effectiveness of current WHM rotation. Suboptimal gamers would be able to just 'press Glare, no care', people who want to push limits would be able to use Banish for movement, use new big heal to remove more lossyGCDs, even use it to heal right before burst window, so that Quake Tornado Flood fall inside raidbuffs for slight gain. Too hard for players to understand though, cos it involves an extra (partially ignoreable) damage button. But if the Big Heal (tm) was added on it's own, with the gauge filling naturally overtime, somehow that'd be fine, nobody would get confused by it. Seems it's specifically when 'do damage' is the gauge charge method that it becomes a problem. I wonder why.

My first clears of fights are unoptimized as hell. My first clear of P8S P1 as SGE (my second clear, first was WHM) has me using 14 Eukrasian Prognosis. This was back when the HP was 'broken' too. You don't need to play anywhere near 'optimally' on DPS output to beat most enrages in this game. People who are asking for 'WHM to have at least something more' have been keeping the 'casual player' in mind. What we seem to agree on with that, is that the healing side of things should stay accessible and simple to understand. Nobody wants to have every healer require an engineering degree just to cast Medica2. But what we (more engagement crowd) also all seem to agree on is that DPS side of things does not NEED to be left in the state it's in, for the sake of some hypothetical player who will be 'too confused' by even the slightest change to their DPS rotation. Or 'won't enjoy it', which is pretty laughable as 'enjoyment' is subjective. Who knows, maybe the changes happen and the 'they won't enjoy it' players actually turn around and say 'hang on this is better and more fun actually', we wouldn't know until it's implemented. Or, we would, if we had patch notes at least. We could see that healing was gonna take a nosedive in terms of 'engagement' when the SHB notes came out and we could see that each healer had been pruned down to 1 dot.

WHM getting an expansion of DPS actions are also actions that you legitimately don't have to interact with if you don't want to. If we use Mario as a reference as you did prior, a common criticism of Super Mario Sunshine was the removal of the long jump introduced in Super Mario 64. The long jump was a very well-utilized tool for many speed runners, and the addition of FLUDD, while nice in its own ways, didn't supplement the loss of that flexible mobility. Our arguments are akin to that of the players who criticized that and wanted the restoration of the long jump, or the addition of new tools that filled that void. But you've interpreted these arguments as demanding official Mario games become Kaizo Mario, where high-skill precision and platforming are requirements to progress through the game.

My favorite levels in SMS were the ones where FLUDD gets stolen, with the acapella BGM Not that one with the chuckster at the end though, he's off my christmas list after last time

Its like if Yoshi wants healer to deal damage but he also want it to be so easy that everyone can do it.So it is not fun for those who wish to do both jobs (healing and dealing damage).

It's because he has to constantly walk on eggshells on the topic. He can't say with a cast iron declaration 'You should do damage if you have no damage to heal', because the 'healers should only heal' players would all rage that they're expected to actually play the game, and quit (loss of revenue for SE). Conversely, he can't say with a cast iron declaration 'healers should NOT be needed to do damage, as that is not their role, and content will be tuned around the assumption that healers will NOT do any damage', because then the more skilled/hardcore players will see 'this game will never truly challenge us, if we do damage as healers it'll just trivialise the enrages, so we should go find a different game that satisfies our hunger for challenge as healers' (loss of revenue for SE). So they have this weird middleground stance, where it's accepted that, yes, in harder content, healers should do damage. But at the same time, it has to be easy for the healer to do damage so the casual's don't get scared of the complexity of 'press two different DOTs, at different times'. Result, nobody's truly happy. The hardcores have very little to optimize, the casuals have no room to grow, and the 'healers should only heal' crowd STILL refuses to press their damage buttons, even though there's so few left.

At this point they could make it so that when you use a heal spell, 50% of the potency of that heal is done as damage in an AOE around the recipient, and some players would stop healing people who are too close to the mob, in case it does damage to the enemy. I've even seen some run out to Assize, so it hits people but not enemies, that's how much they don't want to do damage. Like 0DPS is an accomplishment of its own. Which, it is I guess, but not one you proudly brag about.

[Shurrikhan]

Shurrikhan - Since this discussion is happening in other places (here and on ffxivdiscussion) related to another Job; extra niche buttons aren't a problem. PLD has Shield Bash, which actually has a use in Deep Dungeons. If you were asking for extra buttons that people legitimately don't have to interact with if they don't want to, this would be a different discussion.

I'm not asking for something that most people won't even put on their bars, no. My point was, again, you wouldn't need it to do even the vast majority of Savage, just like you could technically drop most of your oGCDs and still get through it, just with lower damage.

If you're not expected to eek out every possible Glare you can for a given Savage run now (historically, anything tuned that strictly has been explicitly unintended and gets nerfed), neither would you be expected to interact with that added skill ceiling. I think Taurus and Forsaken, too, have pointed out that they want those optimizations to have diminishing returns — such that complete mastery vs. near-complete mastery would be obvious between two people fighting for a top parse, but a degree of difference irrelevant to your average player.


Though, among suggestions for utility, Shield Bash in ARR and pre-nerfs Clemency¹ might be close to some of what I'm looking for there — situationally useful tools that people often forget about but nonetheless have some pretty decent effect.

¹ Clemency went from having mechanics that actually allowed it to be useful... to having no such encounter interactions and greatly devalued spot-healing, and from itself doing ~200% of a Cure II's potency affectable by Requiescat for +50% healing... to ~125% potency and using up Req stacks solely to avoid the sub-GCD cast time (no healing bonus). It was situationally and featurally useful; it's now just a wash.

If you want to have any shot at such changes, you have to be willing to yield and compromise and embrace solutions like mine as ways to get at least something you want.

Okay, again...

Towns A and B are broke. They've recently been giving the opportunity, no string attached, to not be.

Town A: We actually like living simply.
Town B: We'd rather not have to live simply.

The obvious overlap: Have money and still live simply. You... can still do that.

"Ye Great Compromiser": Ahh, well then keep one town in poverty. Then there will be choice!

......

This is the way FFXIV is. You guys aren't getting what you want.

Viewpoint A wants to see each healer job improved according to a few criteria (especially, more engaging downtime and for healing tools not to make each other so redundant while still maintaining about as low a skill floor -- ideally with further value moved towards more integral and iconic features unique to each job).

Viewpoint B wants to see all but a quarter of healer jobs improved (though perhaps by different criteria; I do not know).

You're really going to tell me that the feasibility of any of this revolves around limiting this wave of changes to just 75% of the roster? As if they couldn't predict the massive backlash that'd have from whichever job is left out?

[Renathras]

Towns A and B are broke. They've recently been giving the opportunity, no string attached, to not be.

Town A and Town B are not broke.

They also have been given no opportunity to change. Town A simply thinks there's an implied opportunity where none has been made. BUT, Towns A and B are both rural towns.

Town A wants to be more cosmopolitan and Town B wants to be remain as rural as it is today.

You want to force them to both be more cosmopolitan, regardless of the will of the local people, while I suggest allowing each to be what they want at the same time.

Viewpoint...

Viewpoint A wants to see each healer made more complex because that is what they like.

Viewpoint B would like to see each healer stay simple because that is what they like, but as a compromise, they suggest giving Viewpoint A 3/4ths of them so Viewpoint A will be happy.

Viewpoint A insists they will not be happy unless they get them all, and Viewpoint B can either accepted it and change or can go pound sand, and either way, Viewpoint A will not be happy unless it gets everything it wants and Viewpoint B gets nothing it wants.

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Maybe if you actually had accurate allegories, it might help your understanding of the situation.

[ASkellington]

Viewpoint A wants to see each healer made more complex because that is what they like.

Viewpoint B would like to see each healer stay simple because that is what they like, but as a compromise, they suggest giving Viewpoint A 3/4ths of them so Viewpoint A will be happy.

Viewpoint A insists they will not be happy unless they get them all, and Viewpoint B can either accepted it and change or can go pound sand, and either way, Viewpoint A will not be happy unless it gets everything it wants and Viewpoint B gets nothing it wants.

Say SE does as you say and changes only SGE, AST and SCH to have 2 more dps buttons. WHMs who want higher depth will complain and rightfully so. For simple fact if:

AST who has more to juggle can also have 2 extra dps options then WHM who does not can as well because it is simple.

On top of SGE who is the direct shield comparison to WHM can also have 2 extra dps buttons despite also being as simple as WHM.

Once again - all tanks have a 1-2-3 combo on top of what makes them different: their extra dps. Just because WAR is more simple than GNB doesn't mean WAR doesn't have it. If tank can have that, healers can have a similar build.

To make a comparison, you're literally saying that since WAR is to be the simple tank if it had lost Fell Cleave in Shb, and all the other tanks had extra burst, it shouldn't get it because it's to be the only tank with a 1-2-3 combo. No tank would agree to that. They'd want WAR to get it.

And YES WHM lost Areo 3 and since it is a separate DoT on its own timer and CD you would be expected to use it and Dia in savage. You're arguing against getting it back and another button all because you believe people shouldn't have to adapt their class and stay with all that they knew for an expansion and never grow.

They're gonna relearn how to play their class in 7.0 anyway. I don't see the problem.

Especially considering that both old and new players adapted to SB -> Shb changes of AST and Shb -> EW's changes the latter of which I did.