What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[jameseoakes]

There is no simple "talking about it". Like I said in the rest of the post, it's just people repeating the same points over and sitting in their extremes with nothing new to be said. I'm not policing what you can and can't talk about, I'm pointing out that people just keep repeating the same thing expecting a different result, which is the definition of insanity.

It would be different if there was actual discussion that could go back and forth but you yourself are sitting in a world where to you the story turned into "eugenics is good", which again like I had said, doesn't exactly leave room for actual discussion except to have the serpent eat its tail and the cycle continues.

We're just saying things at each other and not with each other at this point and there's nothing new to say and there never will be without new content, which is doubtful.

Honestly I find it refreshing to have a place to connect with people that express the same underlying issues and see some of them expressed far better than I can master. So I don't intend to stop commenting while I have my sub

[Heroman3003]

I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

[Brinne]

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

And then sometimes, there are takes that I can really only go "huh?" at, not gonna lie.

[jameseoakes]

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

You take on the ancients does not match mine, though I find the idea that Hermes cares about induvial lives questionable after the acts he does partially with the individual meitia. I also find the idea that the flaws in the ancients society meaning the deserved extermination to be frankly vile

Edit: It also bothers me that the ancients are held to a different standard to the sundered, we see Y'sthola sending familiars into a hell dimension and the Sharlayans abandoning there familiars in Dravaina so it seems odd that one group got the killed for it while the other are treated so well

[Xirean]

There is no simple "talking about it". Like I said in the rest of the post, it's just people repeating the same points over and sitting in their extremes with nothing new to be said. I'm not policing what you can and can't talk about, I'm pointing out that people just keep repeating the same thing expecting a different result, which is the definition of insanity.

It would be different if there was actual discussion that could go back and forth but you yourself are sitting in a world where to you the story turned into "eugenics is good", which again like I had said, doesn't exactly leave room for actual discussion except to have the serpent eat its tail and the cycle continues.

We're just saying things at each other and not with each other at this point and there's nothing new to say and there never will be without new content, which is doubtful.

If you're concerned about people saying the story turned into "eugenics good" and that being an "extreme take" them I'm not really sure what response can be given. Because the story did in fact do that when it tried to justify Venat's actions instead of making them an accident. That's really the only change that could have prevented a lot of the issues people have with the story. Although I personally think that the cutscene which plays after leaving Elpis was as a whole very poorly done and would have preferred much more time be spent on it considering it's the final wrap up and justification of that part of the story.

I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

"I don't consider you truly alive so I would not consider it to be murder if I kill you."

[Kazhar]

"I don't consider you truly alive so I would not consider it to be murder if I kill you."

That's one Ancient, and a deeply broken one. It would be like judging the entire Sundered society using only Yotsuyu quotes.

[Xirean]

That's one Ancient, and a deeply broken one. It would be like judging the entire Sundered society using only Yotsuyu quotes.

True it's one Ancient. That's simply the quote that came to mind for me. The fact the unsundered cause rejoinings though makes it impossible for me personally to ever be able to agree with them. Granted that's only 3 alongside however many they forced memories back into. Not trying to make a statement about their entire society with that line though.

[Heroman3003]

That's one Ancient, and a deeply broken one. It would be like judging the entire Sundered society using only Yotsuyu quotes.

Okay. How about part where they were willing to nurture and grow life on the star just to feed it all to Zodiark in return for their former sacrifices? Presumably lesser life, of course, but we know that, say, familiars, sapient beings, are lesser in their eyes too. They, as society, were fully ready to do that and its a small portion that rebelled against THAT that ended up supporting Venat. All in all, ancients as a society did not care about invididual lives until after Final Days hit in full force, and even then they only cared about lives of their own and not the lives of other living beings.

[Heroman3003]

Careful. That's treading on Venat justification territory.

There is no clear right or wrong when there are countless otherwise innocent lives on both sides of the scales. I am just pointing out that it was a choice between "sacrifice a bunch of new life to bring back old" or "accept the old sacrifices as lost and move on". And in that choice, it becomes a lot clearer why Venat felt necessary to oppose pro-Zodiark faction and why she had enough support to create Hydaelin, which she did, according to Emet's own story only after that idea was born.

[Brinne]

I think in my general view, the Ascians and Hydaelyn are roughly morally equivalent, YMMV with closer nuances between them. The Ancients pre-Final Days and pre-Sundering, though? Nah. The Ancients were victims, and Venat (with Hermes) was their killer. I don't really accept a "no clear right or wrong" in that context, at least as far as my own values go, especially with Endwalker's clarification that Venat's concern about the sacrifice plan was not on behalf of the actual sacrifices which, again, she was also perfectly willing to kill so long as she could also kill every Ancient besides the three she needed.