Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's frightening when he has a point.

Like, how did this thread make me have faith in FireMage?

What are you guys doing??

Midareyukki, for the love of Hydaelyn, dont acknowledge or respect FireMage for his troll posts.

[FireMage]

It's frightening when he has a point.

Like, how did this thread make me have faith in FireMage?

What are you guys doing??

Thing is, I always have a point. Funnily enough it's almost always the same point

[Saraide]

Thing is, I always have a point. Funnily enough it's almost always the same point

But but but you say it in a mean way therefore ur wrong!!!

[Midareyukki]

Midareyukki, for the love of Hydaelyn, dont acknowledge or respect FireMage for his troll posts.

I'm trying not to!! But goddamn, people make it hard as hell when the bare minimum effort of thought, "just don't be dead weight and waste the time of 3-7 other people", is being contested!

No one's asking you to be pixel bloody perfect. Quite a fair bit of people are invested in at least making sure their gameplay meets a minimum to allow the content to go smoothly rather than leeching off the effort of other people. If they don't want to raid, obviously they won't learn how to minmax and do amazingly, but at least follow a general gist rotation to make sure things go by smoothly.

And yet most in this thread speak and act as though this is too much to ask and that we should embrace and coddle Ice Mages or people who don't AoE in dungeons... or the same weirdoes who spam Veraero for some odd reason. Like, what the hell!

I get being new, and people should be understanding with new people. But holy hell, sometimes this thread made me feel like some people actually think spamming Scathe is fine and that others saying "That's not a good thing and it's actively wasting our time" is toxic.

At this point, yeah. When the answers you're getting are ridiculous and absurd, when the most absurdist poster actually presents something tame, you feel inclined to agree. And that feels dirty.

[Tehmon]

I'm trying not to!! But goddamn, people make it hard as hell when the bare minimum effort of thought, "just don't be dead weight and waste the time of 3-7 other people", is being contested!

No one's asking you to be pixel bloody perfect. Quite a fair bit of people are invested in at least making sure their gameplay meets a minimum to allow the content to go smoothly rather than leeching off the effort of other people. If they don't want to raid, obviously they won't learn how to minmax and do amazingly, but at least follow a general gist rotation to make sure things go by smoothly.

And yet most in this thread speak and act as though this is too much to ask and that we should embrace and coddle Ice Mages or people who don't AoE in dungeons... or the same weirdoes who spam Veraero for some odd reason. Like, what the hell!

I get being new, and people should be understanding with new people. But holy hell, sometimes this thread made me feel like some people actually think spamming Scathe is fine and that others saying "That's not a good thing and it's actively wasting our time" is toxic.

At this point, yeah. When the answers you're getting are ridiculous and absurd, when the most absurdist poster actually presents something tame, you feel inclined to agree. And that feels dirty.

To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

[Shurrikhan]

To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

When one's performance falls so far below what an SSS test for the given content would indicate was needed that everyone else would need some 5 ilvl greater than what would normally be required, just to carry their ass?

When one's choosing to double the time it takes everyone else to get their daily out of the way over, essentially, RP preferences (feigning that the content isn't trivial as it is) when they could not only survive but also make the run faster off of four buttons (3 defensives and their first AoE action) than by playing perfectly optimally against a single pack at a time.

Etc., etc.

[Midareyukki]

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

Speaking for myself? It's as I said. People who actively are detriments to the "bare minimum" flow of a party through ridiculous means and lack of effort.

Because, again, no one is expecting people to be pixel perfect in casual content, and that's not what parsing should be used for. And if anyone does use it outside its purpose, they can go kiss a GM's arse in Mordion Gaol.

I'd say the bare minimum to be met is knowing your rotation to an acceptable level to both clear the content and learn how to adjust.

With acceptable variations based on the sort of content. Because some content will still give you people that are inexperienced (dungeons*), but others require an agreed-upon level of entry (raids). It's simplistic, but for a short gist explanation, that's the line.

*New players should be accomodated to those levels, obviously. Because often misuse of skills and underperformance often happens because people don't know how to play the game. And if allowed to, it falls on mentors and other players willing to put in the time to reach out a hand and help them improve.
And in casual content at least I find a dead weight to be someone who actively misuses their whole kit, a la Ice Mages or Scathe Spammers.
But there is such a thing as a limit imo. Otherwise we'll still keep finding people excusing things like lack of AoE in Dead Ends. No one is expecting you to be pixel perfect, but also not full-on braindead after a while. I can understand a lv 50 healer still spamming heals because they're afraid that one slap too hard will kill the tank or the party. But definitely inexcusable at Smileton, like... come on. Unless the party is that terrible and standing on every glowy orange circle in the gravel, you shouldn't be that worried.

[Zebraoracle]

Guys I think we've at least moved past the idea of parsing tools in regular dungeons and trials. Let's not cause this thread to get more warped than it already is.

[Midareyukki]

Guys I think we've at least moved past the idea of parsing tools in regular dungeons and trials. Let's not cause this thread to get more warped than it already is.

Understood ; - ; my apologies. Brain fries when you end up agreeing with a glorified red mage.

[FireMage]

To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

Being worse than a Duty Support NPC for one