(ShB/EW SPOILERS) Why do people like Emet-Selch?

[Brinne]

I think the point where we diverge on Emet-Selch's character is that I don't feel the need to justify his actions in order to like him and accepted that he's a flawed person before I went into Endwalker. Elpis gave us an Emet-Selch that is much closer to the modern Emet-Selch than Hermes is (initially) to Fandaniel. His pride, hard-headedness, and sense of duty are Emet-Selch's biggest motivators. And like I said, he has a deep sense of kindness, but it comes without the empathy required to actually understand and connect with others, seeing things in their shoes. While kindness most definitely often comes with empathy, they're not necessarily always together. You can do things that are kind because "it's the right thing to do" without actually feeling for the person you're being kind to. Throughout Eplis, Emet-Selch does kind things, but often when prodded by Hytholdeus in a way that satisfies his pride and/or relents in a way that says "oh fine, I'm the only one who can since I'm so powerful anyway".

One of my favorite characters in this game is Athena, Mikko. And I've been speaking this entire time about how Emet-Selch is absolutely responsible for his shortcomings in communication, contributed to the Elpis trainwreck, how his abuse of Varis is inexcusable, and how the snap-back from his internal arguments trying to convince himself that he really IS a cruel person who doesn't care about others has terrible, unacceptable consequences for those around him. I'm not sure where on earth you could have gotten this read from.

No, I think the point where we diverge on the character is that we came away from Shadowbringers with a different read from his character from the start; you seem to have come away with "aha, he takes cruel actions in Shadowbringers, which must reflect an intrinsically cruel part of his personality, which must have been there all along, so that is what I will search for in his future appearances" and then worked backwards to try and force that square peg into a circular hole going into Endwalker; hence the extremely odd readings of his scenes with Hermes that can't really be substantiated. I saw his psychology of 'an intrinsically kind and empathetic character forcing himself to be cruel, for both good and very, very ill results' since Shadowbringers - that exploring the tragedy of a good person who feels forced to take cruel actions was always one of Shadowbringers's central theses - and thought almost every aspect of his characterization in Endwalker was therefore delightfully perfect. As I said, it's very easy - because this was the writing intent - to connect his scenes on Elpis not with his scenes of being 'cruel' and 'unempathetic' in the prior expansion - but the times when his reluctant kindness and when others' hurt is obviously getting under his skin bothers him because he can't not see it, can't not respond. Trust me, almost every scene in Endwalker is calculated and written to hammer home to you that Emet is an absurdly good person who feels deeply for others, to the point of near-absurdity. His last scene where he turns into an in-game advertisement for future content is predicated on him wordlessly picking up the Warrior of Light's silent distress purely through observation, realizing why, and then responding with comfort, knowing exactly how to cheer them up.

Again, if you want to use this to make a connection to his later villainous behavior, you still can. It's very easy. It's just not as straightforward as 'he was never able to feel for others' - it's actually 'he always felt too much for others.' And then he proceeded to do awful, awful things to cope with that sheer internal dissonance.

If you want to get into nitty-gritty about defining empathy again, we can - I would argue that Emet very clearly displays, multiple times in both expansions, instinctively observing or picking up on others' distress and pain and being made viscerally uncomfortable by it and responding to it in a way I absolutely count as empathy and being emotionally observant. Back in Shadowbringers, he has a whole bit of dialogue where he quite easily calls Thancred out on exactly what he's truly feeling regarding the Ryne situation and why. It just gets jumbled on the way out in terms of how he expresses it because he's a socially awkward idiot who doesn't know how to express himself emotionally to people without being a huge jerk. And perhaps you lean more towards seeing 'empathy' as an intellectual skill and a choice, I usually do not. I define it more as an instinctive emotional attentiveness and sensitivity to others' feelings, even if you don't fully know the context or the details. He's too distressed himself when he sees the distress of others around him, and very clearly "feeling for the person he's being kind to," for me to feel otherwise. Again, if you want to use a word like 'compassion' or 'sensitivity' instead, sure - but the way you define empathy makes it very difficult for me to use as grounds as 'flawed person' in a way that can be meaningful in terms of criticism of one's character, because I don't think the ability to mind-read reflects one's moral standing. (Neither does my definition of empathy, for what it's worth - as I said, that also absolutely led him down his cruel path in a painfully human way.) Especially if we're still using his interactions with Hermes as the prime example here of showing what he's 'lacking'.

[Raven2014]

If the Ancient society itself was as harmonious as you thought it was, Venat and her followers wouldn't have separated from it to fight Zodiark and again, we'd have no story and no game.

The point is it was "too" harmonious. This is not an observation based on real life logic, but the logic imposed by the setting. Recall:

- Even after hearing our story, Venat never actually question or decry Zodiark.
- But she actually questioned herself "why is it I found no recourse but to oppose the Convocation".

So without knowing the real detail, the idea of opposing the 14 is an alien concept to her. In the end, Venat decision is simply her retaining the knowledge. The reason she opposed the 14 because she knew it was a deadend. Even if they survive the Final Day, chance is the Ancient just head their own demise eventually like Raha (which suspiciously made to look identical to the Ancient culture and appearance). Had Venat also have memory wiped, there is a good chance she would have opposed zodiark. The whole Haedylean and sunder business all were due to her having the hindsight knowledge the 14 lacked.

The Allagans got very close to that and had 300 years of peace and an advanced magical civilization until Amon

You should have read that part again: the reason Amon revived Xande was because the Allagan already reached the point of stagnation and decline. Xande wasn't the start of their downfall, he was supposed to put a stop to that. In some of the Herme flashback, you saw Allagan researchers were so bored that they could only find pleasure and entertainment in the most twisted and cruel experiments. I'm not sure if you're familiar with WarHammer40k lore, but the Allagan society right before Xande's rebirth were pretty much idential to the Eldar's descend into decadent before they gave birth to Slaanesh. In fact the parallel is so apparent that I wouldn't be suprise if Allagan was written based on the image of Eldar.

[NekoMataMata]

He has a really nice voice.

[Raoabolic]

You should have read that part again: the reason Amon revived Xande was because the Allagan already reached the point of stagnation and decline. Xande wasn't the start of their downfall, he was supposed to put a stop to that. In some of the Herme flashback, you saw Allagan researchers were so bored that they could only find pleasure and entertainment in the most twisted and cruel experiments. I'm not sure if you're familiar with WarHammer40k lore, but the Allagan society right before Xande's rebirth were pretty much idential to the Eldar's descend into decadent before they gave birth to Slaanesh. In fact the parallel is so apparent that I wouldn't be suprise if Allagan was written based on the image of Eldar.

Man, now you want me to see a FFXI Dynamis version of Allag where they go full Slaanesh in the dark future where Amon never existed and let them keep falling into decadence. That would be a sweet 24 man raid but in the back of my mind all I hear is "it's going to be Void Ark 2.0, lol".

[Iscah]

He has a really nice voice.

Everyone seems to say this but I really disagree. He's too high and whiny-sounding.

[SugarPuff]

One thing I like about Emet-Selch is the mixture of amusement and self-disgust he shows when going against his own better judgment. Not that I necessarily agree it's better, but I definitely find the sentiment relatable. He's not my very favorite villain but there are aspects of his personality I enjoy.

[Raven2014]

Whilst I don't disagree per-se, it didn't feel quite the same here. The WoL actually said something (in response to Alisae's "No! Don't!") before pressing the button to activate the teleportation device.

Of course, we don't really know what 'we' said but the TV Tropes entry regarding that scene says this:
"Realizing that they still have the power to save their friends the Warrior of Light activates the the teleportation tomestone that was given to them before they left Ethyris, but before it can work on them the Warrior of Light lets it slip gently from their hands so that they can stay behind to fight. Worse here is that Alisaie sees them doing this and begs them to stop. All the player character can do is smile gently and tell them it's all right. note While the player character doesn't talk, their lip movements look similar to the Japanese words Daijoubu which can be translated as such."

Our WoL have a trademark shit eating grin for when we are confident thing gonna be alright. Same for Emet, he has a smug for whenever he feels confident about his odd. This one isn't it. Also, for culture reference, Japanese "Daijoubu" in some context is similar to us saying "it gonna be alright" as a "nerve" thing. Like you say it gonna be alright even when clearly it's NOT gonna be alright.


For comparison:



- Luoixous after he successful teleport the party.
- Emet as he watching you crossing into the portal.
- And you as you decide to active the teleport device.

They all share a rather distance look, and while their lip is smiling, it's not one of satisfaction. More like a "I'll try to do my best, but the rest is up to you" kind of smile.

[VictorTheed]

I was always an Elidibus fan when it came to the Ascians.

[Ranaku]

snip

Cause well we are fragmented shards of what we once were and Emet knows that. So of course he sees us as flawed cause we are basically destined to suffer and struggle, something the ancients didn't had to deal with most of the time. They didn't had war or much discord. No slavery or homeless. No hunger or pain. No death before you felt like it was your time to go.

And after Hydaelyn fragmented everything he saw all those achievements crumble into dust and ashes, while everyone he once knew and loved were either trapped to be the shield that protects the planet or trapped in a endless cycle of suffering and rebirth. Given the ascians caused much pain and conflict but in the end it was always "mankind" with the sword in hand doing unspeakable things. Lying and slaughtering. Murdering and destroying.

I mean how would you feel, being thrown from a world that knows no war and no hate into a world that basically is full of hate and destruction and disorder. Fueled by the broken souls of the people you loved, destined to sacrifice and suffer for a purpose only Hydaelyn knew.

Which doesn't mean that the ancients weren't flawed or that they were perfect. They simply were people of order and stability which is the reason why they were so vulnerable to the seed of chaos and discord.

In the end, what he did was in his peoples interest. The same way Ul'dah destroyed its sister state. The same way gridania sacrificed people and his elders in a blood ritual to pacify the spirits. The same way Limsa slaughtered wild tribes to get to their resources even tho they had a pact, thus forcing them into summoning their primals. Same as the garleans weren't all evil. Same as the domans had also and still have problems, look at Yotsuyu sold into slavery cause her parents treated her like she was their property. And what about you? The WoL slaughtering thousands and thousands of people who have also families and friends and loved ones?

Everyone fights for their own side, everyone is the hero of their own story. And everyone is doing cruel unspeakable things when doing so, the WoL, Emet and everyone else. And people like Emet so much or at least me cause SE did show us this fact of life with him.

[BaconBits]

All this yapping about smiling in the face of certain doom and nobody brings up my boy Papalymo sacrificing his life to give the Alliance enough time to find something capable of dealing with Shinryu.

Doing him almost as dirty as SE did by killing him off so soon after he finally showed back up in HW.