(ShB/EW SPOILERS) Why do people like Emet-Selch?

[MilkieTea]

Man, IDK. Villains are more interesting than heroes when done correctly. That being said, I find both the heroes and villains of this story to be pretty compelling characters with moral dilemmas up the wazoo.

[Voltyblast]

I don't. But I used to like him.

Then that last scene near Amaurot made me go "aaand down goes the care-o-meter". Just poof, all gone.

Afterall, if he doesn't care then why should I?

[Raven2014]

His final scene on Elpis is what seal it for me:

- Even now, I do not believe in your tale. I will not suffer us to walk such a wretched path.
- Still, if it must be said ... Do no squander it, the legacy I leave you.

I think the scene crystalize Emet's character very well, and frankly some of it can only be understood in hindsight.

He does not want to believe you, because it's too horrible to believe, that's his inner voice. But at the same time, given the event that transpire up until that point, his responsibility as member of the twelve tell him he needs to trust you. As you enter the rift to get out of the tower, the scene fade with Emet-Setch close his eyes with a smile. How one choose to interpret can be varied, but for me it's a smile of resolve, regret, but also resignation. "I will stand my ground, but if I fail, other will carry the torches".


By the way, that kind of "smile" is kinda a recurring theme in the game at the end of each era:

- Louixous looked like that when he teleport the 1.0 adventurers away before facing Bahamut by himself.
- The WOL (aka you) had the same smile when you teleport the scion away before facing the End Singer.

Up until the end of ShB we kinda assume it's the Ancient's legacy that Emet wants to protect. But I think here it's actually the legacy of all life of the stars that he's entrusting to the WoL (he kinda affirmed this when we resummon him at the end of EW). After all, accepting our story means he acknowledge that he will eventually commit atrocities that he think he never would, that he would become a "melodramatic fool" that will define the soul of his comrades, and that he will become our enemy and die by our hand. Despite all that, he still choose to aid our escape because we may be the last hope if he fails.


The Elpis Emer-Setch, will all his faculty and knowledge reject the Emer-Setch that we knew, and for me that's true Emer-Setch. In a way he's a more tragic figure than Venat is. She at least has a clear picture and a clear plan. Emer-Setch basically were bumbling around in ignorant and desperation against an enemy he never knew.

[shadowclasper]

genuine question. the guy spends all his time talking about how his race is so perfect and wonderful and every other race is evil malformed subhumans and society would be perfect if only his race existed... as far as I've seen he's just fantasy h****r with a little bit of sass

the nail in the coffin for me was the cutscene in the cave where i immediately thought "well if they went as far as blowing up the planet they probably had a very compelling reason to do so" but emet was like "they did it just because they thought zodiark was ugly." without even considering there might have been something else going on... possibly related to the world-ending event that just happened

as a femboy appreciator, i can understand being so desperate for hythlodaeus that he'd commit several genocides to get him back, but at least be honest instead of the whole "i wanna kill everyone to make the world better" thing...

There's a reason I called out both emet and hydalen as monsters when asked my opinion of them. Tbh, I think it's the emoness+being a snappy dresser

[Carin-Eri]

- The WOL (aka you) had the same smile when you teleport the scion away before facing the End Singer.

Whilst I don't disagree per-se, it didn't feel quite the same here. The WoL actually said something (in response to Alisae's "No! Don't!") before pressing the button to activate the teleportation device.

Of course, we don't really know what 'we' said but the TV Tropes entry regarding that scene says this:
"Realizing that they still have the power to save their friends the Warrior of Light activates the the teleportation tomestone that was given to them before they left Ethyris, but before it can work on them the Warrior of Light lets it slip gently from their hands so that they can stay behind to fight. Worse here is that Alisaie sees them doing this and begs them to stop. All the player character can do is smile gently and tell them it's all right. note While the player character doesn't talk, their lip movements look similar to the Japanese words Daijoubu which can be translated as such."

[Themarvin]

Well one need to look at it with history in perspective... persons like Hitler was also loved and adored and had millions of fans back in the time.... it is the same thing with Emett-Selch... a crazed mass murderer that at first was popular then turned into a raving madman causing the genocide of millions.... or do the Putin reference... and methods... and as how Garlemeld ended in genocide as well with Zenos at the front.... Zenos very much alike Putin.

FFXIV very much reflect the problems in the world and drives satire on it as well Vaulthry was Donald Trump for an instance..

So I don't get why people love some of these villains so much, because they depict the most gruesome cruelties one can ever think of done towards people.

[RobynDaBank]

Well one need to look at it with history in perspective... persons like Hitler was also loved and adored and had millions of fans back in the time.... it is the same thing with Emett-Selch... a crazed mass murderer that at first was popular then turned into a raving madman causing the genocide of millions.... or do the Putin reference... and methods... and as how Garlemeld ended in genocide as well with Zenos at the front.... Zenos very much alike Putin.

FFXIV very much reflect the problems in the world and drives satire on it as well Vaulthry was Donald Trump for an instance..

So I don't get why people love some of these villains so much, because they depict the most gruesome cruelties one can ever think of done towards people.

Well I mean, if you're bent on depicting it like that... I can just as easily say some of the villains of the world - people like school shooters - have their own fandoms as well.

[MikkoAkure]

Basically, the "gap" between the Ancient and the current world is almost as big as between human and pigs, if not bigger. If someone say "let's kill off the human so the pig can live in peace" ... most of us won't even turn that into the question of empathy, but madness.

The problem I have with this comparison is that it's reducing a much more complex situation into a very oversimplified analogy.

Plus, Sundured people and the Ancients are just as sentient as one another and are able to communicate and relate to each other on equal terms. It's just that one group is much more powerful both physically and magically and comes from a mostly unified culture. Other than their aetheric levels and millennia of continuous civilization as a background, the Ancients themselves at the individual level aren't intrinsically any better or worse than the sundered. Emet-Selch was so close to seeing this but pulled away. If the Ancients were so much higher than the Sundered, than we as players whose own world is closer to the Sundered than the Ancients would not be able to sympathize with both of them.

The Allagans got very close to that and had 300 years of peace and an advanced magical civilization until Amon + likely Ascian involvement revived the first emperor as a madman and the war engine kicked up again to bring it all crashing down. Who knows how far the Sundered world could have gone if the Ascians worked with them like with Allag but didn't hit the reset button every 1.5-2k years? The issue is that if it went that way and there was no conflict, there would be no story and no game.

If the Ancient society itself was as harmonious as you thought it was, Venat and her followers wouldn't have separated from it to fight Zodiark and again, we'd have no story and no game.

Emet's twists of excessive cruelty aren't attributed, when all is said and done with his characterization to an intrinsic "cruelty" or "callousness" that was always there. It's something he violently, excessively, self-destructively throws himself into because the deep kindness that is the "true" part of who he always was (reflected in how he treats Hermes) viscerally can't stand what he's doing, and he's trying to shut it up and make it disappear. He's oscillating wildly between burnt-out depression, despairing resentment at others, self-loathing, and loathing in general all as parts of his shrieking copium that, yes, does immeasurable and unjustifiable harm to others. And he recognizes that on some level, and then the cycle continues.

I think the point where we diverge on Emet-Selch's character is that I don't feel the need to justify his actions in order to like him and accepted that he's a flawed person before I went into Endwalker. Elpis gave us an Emet-Selch that is much closer to the modern Emet-Selch than Hermes is (initially) to Fandaniel. His pride, hard-headedness, and sense of duty are Emet-Selch's biggest motivators. And like I said, he has a deep sense of kindness, but it comes without the empathy required to actually understand and connect with others, seeing things in their shoes. While kindness most definitely often comes with empathy, they're not necessarily always together. You can do things that are kind because "it's the right thing to do" without actually feeling for the person you're being kind to. Throughout Eplis, Emet-Selch does kind things, but often when prodded by Hytholdeus in a way that satisfies his pride and/or relents in a way that says "oh fine, I'm the only one who can since I'm so powerful anyway".

[Raoabolic]

Well I mean, if you're bent on depicting it like that... I can just as easily say some of the villains of the world - people like school shooters - have their own fandoms as well.

That or people see what lead up to the mess and realize the problem is still there and that those people are symptoms of bigger issues. However, solving those issues will bring up questions no one wants to tackle for various reasons. /shrug

[VictorSpoils]

He was kind of underwhelming after being exposed to Ardyn, the other quirky immortal goth dude with teleporting darkness powers and a tragic backstory. His first appearance was also right around when Episode Ardyn released so there probably were comparisons. Ardyn could've been better too though (unlike Emet and Varis, Ardyn got zero scenes with Iedolas).