Rework sage

[ty_taurus]

That's healers in general in dungeons, unfortunately. Anyone using dungeon content in 14 as any kind of standard for how healers play is either woefully misinformed or very disingenuous. Dungeons are the easiest content in the game, and healers are barely needed (they AREN'T needed in experts).

Oh no doubt, but it still bothers me whenever anyone discusses any healer as "perfect" or "feels great in dungeons" because no matter the balance, every healer still has a gaping hole in their gameplay

[Zebraoracle]

Oh no doubt, but it still bothers me whenever anyone discusses any healer as "perfect" or "feels great in dungeons" because no matter the balance, every healer still has a gaping hole in their gameplay

Oh yeah for sure.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I think they've made themselves pretty clear about just wanting to stir the pot anyways. :shrug:

[Rithy255]

Have you considered the idea that you're just wrong?

Yes, SGE feels very smooth in dungeons - but no one feelycrafts their way to early Savage/Ultimate prog and clears.

When push comes to shove SGE lacks a lot of what SCH excells at while bringing nothing much unique to the table. SCH contributes to the 2min burst more than SGE ever could, can out-mitigate SGE and has more flexibility in terms of burst on demand. SCH is just a better SGE, but the trade off is the clunky parts of the (still superior) kit.

Also, before you go trying to stalk a lodestone page - yes, alts exist.

This generally explains a lot of the issue with sage, I find it really doesn't offer anything really (other then a personal gap closer) that the scholar already offers, Scholar in general is a bit more stronger but most of SCH/SGE kit are the same and SCH just in general offers a overall better kit

Don't get me wrong it doesn't really matter that much but if a healer asked me in a raid setting "what would you want me to go as out of sage or scholar?" I'd always want a scholar (mainly for the epic speed boost people dunked on). Sage Just feels so redundant as a job to the point where barrier astro was more interesting because it acted as a 2nd barrier job while feeling completely different to scholar, Sages inclusion currently feels like it takes more from the game then it gives.

Now I like sage with how it looks, but I generally just want some actual meaningful upsides to the job. I never really feel like I need to play sage (I only casually play healers), I'll play astro if i wanna be busy and have fun, I wanna play scholar if If I want Big barriers in general have a good healing kit, I wanna play white mage if I just wanna chill and not have to really think about much. With sage? like all I think is meh I rather have crit barriers prepull and excog, y'know speed boost always is nice aswell on scholar

[IceBlueNinja]

Am so confused. All of a sudden people is asking about giving ast back duel sects? People use to gripe about ast being a wannabe whm / sch and thats gone and ast is no longer abused, now sage faving old ast abuse. Ast itself too dont have identity no more too if there as to be bias most spells is copy whm things which is just cheaper and better lol. Nah delete all healers and let blue mage be a full time healer and maybe all be happy. The sage hate really stem off noct hate is what it is. Ast and Sage are copies of whm and sch and have slighty unique things but not much. Sage aint going no where no matter how many hates on it , let it be for the few who actually has no issue with it and stay with your overated sch please.

[ty_taurus]

Am so confused. All of a sudden people is asking about giving ast back duel sects? People use to gripe about ast being a wannabe whm / sch and thats gone and ast is no longer abused, now sage faving old ast abuse. Ast itself too dont have identity no more too if there as to be bias most spells is copy whm things which is just cheaper and better lol. Nah delete all healers and let blue mage be a full time healer and maybe all be happy. The sage hate really stem off noct hate is what it is. Ast and Sage are copies of whm and sch and have slighty unique things but not much. Sage aint going no where no matter how many hates on it , let it be for the few who actually has no issue with it and stay with your overated sch please.

From as early as HW, a major complaint is that the sect system felt lazy and restrictive. Rather than allow AST to have its own unique approach to healing, it was decided that it should just either be a budget WHM or a budget SCH rather than just be its own thing. People wanted it to drop both sects and do something different, like be a delayed healing healer, or a healer that sets up detonates heals. Maybe that’s what inspired Earthly Star.

Additionally, Noct has always been the inferior form. Noct barriers don’t stack, but diurnal regents do. Extending the duration of regens was possible with time dilation/celestial opposition, but extending barriers is worthless. Even after the removal of buff extension, diurnal would just out perform nocturnal significantly side barriers were largely unnecessary in content. Why bother when you’ll get exponentially more value out of regens? The concept of removing nocturnal still remained, but under the implication that diurnal would also be removed and AST would do its own thing.

Fast forward to now and the pure/barrier binary has been enforced, though the actual lines between them are hazy at best. But if we’re going to flesh out this dynamic, then the removal of nocturnal ends up being silly. Why take away the jobs ability to flex between these spots just to have an even number of pure and barrier healers when we’re just going to cross that bridge anyway when a 5th healer is added?

Ultimately, while the pure/barrier system has left a lot to be desired, most people are willing to work with it if it can become something other than a joke.

[IceBlueNinja]

From as early as HW, a major complaint is that the sect system felt lazy and restrictive. Rather than allow AST to have its own unique approach to healing, it was decided that it should just either be a budget WHM or a budget SCH rather than just be its own thing. People wanted it to drop both sects and do something different, like be a delayed healing healer, or a healer that sets up detonates heals. Maybe that’s what inspired Earthly Star.

Additionally, Noct has always been the inferior form. Noct barriers don’t stack, but diurnal regents do. Extending the duration of regens was possible with time dilation/celestial opposition, but extending barriers is worthless. Even after the removal of buff extension, diurnal would just out perform nocturnal significantly side barriers were largely unnecessary in content. Why bother when you’ll get exponentially more value out of regens? The concept of removing nocturnal still remained, but under the implication that diurnal would also be removed and AST would do its own thing.

Fast forward to now and the pure/barrier binary has been enforced, though the actual lines between them are hazy at best. But if we’re going to flesh out this dynamic, then the removal of nocturnal ends up being silly. Why take away the jobs ability to flex between these spots just to have an even number of pure and barrier healers when we’re just going to cross that bridge anyway when a 5th healer is added?

Ultimately, while the pure/barrier system has left a lot to be desired, most people are willing to work with it if it can become something other than a joke.

I agree and respect your feedback but let me ask. One thing to note and it was not common in sbh to have 2 ast could in savage content but two ast can have a total of 7 regens and 4 barrier stack how? di ast would do = nuetral asp helios and di intersect which grant the shield then celestial to do regen. noct ast pretty much does the same step cause aspect noct did stack with celestial noct shield. di shields could stack though with noct one but say 2 ast use di inter it wouldnt stack like noct. Now your part of the barriers, now we agree in major content not even savage that barriers are not really a must since its agreed regens are supreme, so why again must people brag on how better sch sage shields are over sge? That then should be a good thing if sage barriers are weak since it would give a challenge of not feeling that op sch makes content not ultimate feels not challenging?

[Rithy255]

Am so confused. All of a sudden people is asking about giving ast back duel sects? People use to gripe about ast being a wannabe whm / sch and thats gone and ast is no longer abused, now sage faving old ast abuse. Ast itself too dont have identity no more too if there as to be bias most spells is copy whm things which is just cheaper and better lol. Nah delete all healers and let blue mage be a full time healer and maybe all be happy. The sage hate really stem off noct hate is what it is. Ast and Sage are copies of whm and sch and have slighty unique things but not much. Sage aint going no where no matter how many hates on it , let it be for the few who actually has no issue with it and stay with your overated sch please.

Astro's gameplay is way way different to white mage, compared to Sch vs Sage, Astro also already has a lot of strong delayed heals, it has the card system love it or dislike it unlike most healers astro's also got to focus way more, it doesn't use the same system of white mages lillies ontop of that. Sages existence generally is the reason why we have this 2 pure & 2 barrier split right now, which mind you if they removed astro barrier for a "good reason" like making sage a unique take on a barrier healer it would actually be cool.

I don't think sage is a bad Job to play, but scholar is Just better I don't believe "remove sage" I just want sage to generally get more differences and even buffed in some areas so it can stand with scholar as a strong barrier healer, being critical of a Job's design isn't meant to be "sage hate" I really like how the Job actually looks but I want more for the Job to stand out, Scholar could also use adjustments, so could astro and white mage, healers in general need more of a Identity, I get more annoyed with sage with how it feels just so pointless to me really "support" Jobs such as tanks/healers should have room for kits to actually have meaningful differences from one another. I'm not really overating scholar it's generally just slightly better Imo, I'd like both jobs to be more different from one another that's all.

[IceBlueNinja]

Astro's gameplay is way way different to white mage, compared to Sch vs Sage, Astro also already has a lot of strong delayed heals, it has the card system love it or dislike it unlike most healers astro's also got to focus way more, it doesn't use the same system of white mages lillies ontop of that. Sages existence generally is the reason why we have this 2 pure & 2 barrier split right now, which mind you if they removed astro barrier for a "good reason" like making sage a unique take on a barrier healer it would actually be cool.

I don't think sage is a bad Job to play, but scholar is Just better I don't believe "remove sage" I just want sage to generally get more differences and even buffed in some areas so it can stand with scholar as a strong barrier healer, being critical of a Job's design isn't meant to be "sage hate" I really like how the Job actually looks but I want more for the Job to stand out, Scholar could also use adjustments, so could astro and white mage, healers in general need more of a Identity, I get more annoyed with sage with how it feels just so pointless to me really "support" Jobs such as tanks/healers should have room for kits to actually have meaningful differences from one another. I'm not really overating scholar it's generally just slightly better Imo, I'd like both jobs to be more different from one another that's all.

Yes ast does require skill indeed as a oerson who loved stormblood ast indeed. However now with all ast lost of its sects and time extend buff and those goodness, imo its so boring as well as all healers atm do to the cards doing the same boring thing for more stress for lil award . But yeah idk this game it just seem healer balance cant happen. One party will always agree or disagree with other and so now its this state it seems devs are like well what do we do situation, nothing we try works.

[Rithy255]

Yes ast does require skill indeed as a oerson who loved stormblood ast indeed. However now with all ast lost of its sects and time extend buff and those goodness, imo its so boring as well as all healers atm do to the cards doing the same boring thing for more stress for lil award . But yeah idk this game it just seem healer balance cant happen. One party will always agree or disagree with other and so now its this state it seems devs are like well what do we do situation, nothing we try works.

Eh I get what you mean, I feel like cards at least have some interactive RNG to them, I think y'know it's fine astro can be a bit more stressful I at least feel something, but I'd generally prefer cards be more unique (like stormblood) it feels like slowly overtime Astro has been less and less of it's identity.

ff14 healing feels really counter productive to me, I don't get why they would design encounters around healers doing dps, but the healers dps interaction is one button and a dot generally, ok sure you do actual healing as healer, but theirs tons of downtime between that, Astro actually gives me something to manage while also healing which i can enjoy even if it's a bit stressful, I like stress and difficulty it feels more rewarding. I just generally want healers to do more? like I don't mind if they get a few extra dps buttons or manage healing more then they do currently, I just want to feel something when healing it might feel different in "savage" like a lot of people say but why should a whole Job category only feel good for a small amount of the player base? even further it being off putting and boring to play in normal content puts a lot of people off in picking it up in savage content.

I feel like something needs to be done about healer design, Endwalker played a lot of things safe even made some healers feel worse imo, like white mage getting shorter cast times, I know people will say "nah it's a buff feels better" but I actually liked how white mage had long cast times compared to astro. (pretty sure sch had long too?) I like small differences that just make jobs actually feel different from one another... I don't really want the next direction for 7.0 to be even more Jobs becoming "reskins" with small differences from one another. I'm really worried about the PLD changes in 6.3, also got to look foward to astro possibly being reworked into something that will make the job even more like other healers.