Playing an expansion as current content has been a lacklustre MMO experience

[Shurrikhan]

(I personally enjoyed the old Gathering system)

I honestly enjoyed gathering here and there in 1.x. Once it became "pick X from loot table" in ARR, far less so. /shrug

The absolute worst offense I think XIV has done is compartmentalize every aspect of the game to force playstyles in certain directions instead of embracing the world they've created. They've effectively turned every system into hallways just like our dungeons are now, and they refuse to iterate on systems they create. Their dev cycle is to create, forget, and never discuss.

And that is the part that so irritates me -- most content being either only stalely 'reiterated' upon ("I heard you guys like 2 walls -> boss -> repeat") such that a content format becomes increasingly self-similar, left one-and-done, or just ignores assumes any improvement anywhere in a given model will be taken as a hefty net positive (even if other areas fall notably short), with no real communication with players to try to parse out what parts appealed and what didn't (falling back instead of 'was it played' and typically conflating the results of bribes with intrinsic value).

[Absurdity]

We get so little because people can barely handle even that much without losing their minds. Surely you saw the threads about what Island Sanctuary was "going to be" and how disappointed people were when they were certain it would be like that. Now imagine they gave us a more detailed plan and explanation for one of the upcoming changes... That patch day comes and things aren't as they were originally told. All hell breaks loose because "you promised us".

That's just as likely to be because it takes them way too long to actually give people concrete answers. Was it on purpose? Maybe. People hyping up Island Sanctuary probably boosted Endwalker's sales.

But if they would've just come out from the start and told people "No, you will not be able to customize your island with housing items. No, it is not instanced housing. You have presets for how it looks and the gameplay is mostly passive resource generation" suddenly expectations would've been tempered and maybe all these people incredibly pissed about Island Sanctuary "breaking promises" wouldn't even exist...but it also would've made Island Sanctuary generate a lot less hype and we obviously can't have that.

[Deveryn]

That's just as likely to be because it takes them way too long to actually give people concrete answers. Was it on purpose? Maybe. People hyping up Island Sanctuary probably boosted Endwalker's sales.

But if they would've just come out from the start and told people "No, you will not be able to customize your island with housing items. No, it is not instanced housing. You have presets for how it looks and the gameplay is mostly passive resource generation" suddenly expectations would've been tempered and maybe all these people incredibly pissed about Island Sanctuary "breaking promises" wouldn't even exist...but it also would've made Island Sanctuary generate a lot less hype.

The idea that Island Sanctuary, not the closing of this epic saga, boosted Endwalker sales has me rollin'.

Yoshi actually said point blank "It's not housing" The description they gave was simple and accurate, talking about placing buildings, growing crops. At no point did they say you could get into deep customization.

And that is the part that so irritates me -- most content being either only stalely 'reiterated' upon ("I heard you guys like 2 walls -> boss -> repeat") such that a content format becomes increasingly self-similar, left one-and-done, or just ignores assumes any improvement anywhere in a given model will be taken as a hefty net positive (even if other areas fall notably short), with no real communication with players to try to parse out what parts appealed and what didn't (falling back instead of 'was it played' and typically conflating the results of bribes with intrinsic value).

Dungeons became hallways because so many players didn't want to let others explore. I remember it was a good few months before I ever got places like Sastasha or Haukke fully explored. They could see it in their logs that no one was touching these areas, so there was no point in continuing that kind of design.

[R041]

I honestly enjoyed gathering here and there in 1.x. Once it became "pick X from loot table" in ARR, far less so. /shrug

They SORTA kept it in with how FSH currently works. But also FSH is barely relevant anymore, so it's basically a punch to the gut. Whenever something new comes out it's both great and horrible at the same time. Fishing Expedition? AMAZING IDEA! But why you gotta dumpster my inventory?

But if they would've just come out from the start and told people "No, you will not be able to customize your island with housing items. No, it is not instanced housing. You have presets for how it looks and the gameplay is mostly passive resource generation" suddenly expectations would've been tempered and maybe all these people incredibly pissed about Island Sanctuary "breaking promises" wouldn't even exist...but it also would've made Island Sanctuary generate a lot less hype and we obviously can't have that.

They're almost starting to suffer from No Man's Sky syndrome. All Yoshi had to do is say "No", not "Maybe". It all turns into a tease, just like everyone hyped up Variant thinking it'd be closer to Mythic+ because we had no info. But this is all just a byproduct of them probably rushing systems and not even knowing what they'll be until the deadline.

Dungeons became hallways because so many players didn't want to let others explore. I remember it was a good few months before I ever got places like Sastasha or Haukke fully explored. They could see it in their logs that no one was touching these areas, so there was no point in continuing that kind of design.

That's why everything's turning into 1 big hallway, and that's not a good thing - They can't figure out how to iterate on what they have outside of culling things they feel don't work. So we get streamlined versions of everything.

You're also making a big assumption on activity. Just because 50% of all traffic go through 1 area, doesn't mean you should remove the other sections of each 10%, that removes variety. You're basically advocating for Variant Dungeons to not exist because eventually we're going to just go down 1 path after trying everything, to farm rewards. Well you're probably right, so why make it, and why does it exist then? LOL

Most people don't Gather or Craft, doubt that's in the major percentage of activity compared to Combat. Better remove them!

Better remove FATEs altogether, because they're bad and nobody runs them. Making them better? No way, that's crazy talk and out of the question!

Why even have Open World? Why not make it 1 big hallway! Better remove the rest of Limsa, because everyone only sits at the Aetheryte!

[Shurrikhan]

Dungeons became hallways because so many players didn't want to let others explore. I remember it was a good few months before I ever got places like Sastasha or Haukke fully explored. They could see it in their logs that no one was touching these areas, so there was no point in continuing that kind of design.

It isn't not as if dungeons are as narrowly designed as they are solely because they decided against room for exploration, of all things. There's a good dozen other constraints there between "a curated environment-delving combat experience that features both bosses and non-boss packs" and what we actually see.

Not bothering with unrewarding side-rooms is fine -- probably even for the best, so long as that design approach doesn't extend into other areas; it's the many, many other ways and degrees of stale design in XIV's dungeons that ticks people off.

That said, it's not necessarily the case that people didn't like X just because they didn't do X when the rewards for doing it just weren't there (especially, in a game that otherwise largely ensures breadth of reward). Siderooms are, by nature of having to backtrack, less efficient. They're also more tenuous, by nature of being less obvious and there possibly being members more pressed for time. If the devs wanted them actually done... they'd need to have given them decent enough rewards. The closest they ever got to that was the unique crafting ingredients, but one could mirror those stats with other recipes just a few levels higher.

[R041]

It isn't not as if dungeons are as narrowly designed as they are solely because they decided against room for exploration, of all things. There's a good dozen other constraints there between "a curated environment-delving combat experience that features both bosses and non-boss packs" and what we actually see.

Not bothering with unrewarding side-rooms is fine -- probably even for the best, so long as that design approach doesn't extend into other areas; it's the many, many other ways and degrees of stale design in XIV's dungeons that ticks people off.

Right, it really comes down to HOW they designed those paths and rooms. Part of the problem was the room design was usually just 1 separated room with 1-2 mobs and a note? Ignore.

Instead, it should have been a fork with a decision of 2 big creatures, 10 little melee creatures, deadly traps and 2 range creatures. So you make decisions based on your comp and tank, and this encourages discussion. Not just for the sake of looking for some dungeon text.

I feel that WoW can be a bit extreme there, but their ability to have variety is way better and refreshing for the most part. We don't even have wandering packs anymore, nothing to avoid or manage. It all just happens, it's a guaranteed hallway and they all do the same exact thing. Even Variant, which they promised well.. VARIETY. Is absolutely horrible at this STILL.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Right, it really comes down to HOW they designed those paths and rooms. Part of the problem was the room design was usually just 1 separated room with 1-2 mobs and a note? Ignore.

Instead, it should have been a fork with a decision of 2 big creatures, 10 little melee creatures, deadly traps and 2 range creatures. So you make decisions based on your comp and tank, and this encourages discussion. Not just for the sake of looking for some dungeon text.

I feel that WoW can be a bit extreme there, but their ability to have variety is way better and refreshing for the most part. We don't even have wandering packs anymore, nothing to avoid or manage. It all just happens, it's a guaranteed hallway and they all do the same exact thing. Even Variant, which they promised well.. VARIETY. Is absolutely horrible at this STILL.

the problem with giving those kind of choices is that as we all know with the community, people will find the most optimal route/strategy to go through so that choice might as well not even be there. And its because of this that forced the devs to respond in kind with how current design works. Its kinda sad, because one we cant fault the players here, but I also wouldnt fault the devs since honestly there's no actual point to the exploration in the old dungeon design we have now.

[Shurrikhan]

Right, it really comes down to HOW they designed those paths and rooms. Part of the problem was the room design was usually just 1 separated room with 1-2 mobs and a note? Ignore.

Instead, it should have been a fork with a decision of 2 big creatures, 10 little melee creatures, deadly traps and 2 range creatures. So you make decisions based on your comp and tank, and this encourages discussion.

Would also allow for more diverse encounters without jobs being too forced on a dungeon-by-dungeons basis.

I imagine that discussion would very quickly turn tacit (or, replaced by automatic expectations for this or that comp or tank that one is expected to know by their third run or so), but having more choices in route allows the dungeons to soften the differences between meta comp picks and the rest without requiring homogeneity of jobs or content, and that is already a huge boon.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Would also allow for more diverse encounters without jobs being too forced on a dungeon-by-dungeons basis.

I imagine that discussion would very quickly turn tacit (or, replaced by automatic expectations for this or that comp or tank that one is expected to know by their third run or so), but having more choices in route allows the dungeons to soften the differences between meta comp picks and the rest without requiring homogeneity of jobs or content, and that is already a huge boon.

Designing alternate paths wouldnt really solve the job homogeny because every mob encounter is literally dealt with the same role comp. No job is going to have any advantage over the other because mobs dont have any sort of weaknesses or tactics like in other rpgs. Literally we'd just be choosing "do we want to take this room with more mobs or less mobs?" Also the lack of gaining exp even makes this extremely moot.

I would instead like to make alternate paths to find hidden extra treasure (that you cant backtrack) or heck maybe even giving alternate bosses. Now this is the reason why we have variant dungeons existing but we'll have to wait till future expansions to see how much progress that content plays out.

[Absurdity]

Designing alternate paths wouldnt really solve the job homogeny because every mob encounter is literally dealt with the same role comp. No job is going to have any advantage over the other because mobs dont have any sort of weaknesses or tactics like in other rpgs. Literally we'd just be choosing "do we want to take this room with more mobs or less mobs?" Also the lack of gaining exp even makes this extremely moot.

Obviously it wouldn't fix the job design, we're dealing with 2 separate problems here, boring job design and incredibly boring dungeon design, both stacking up in for example expert roulette to give a rather unsatisfying gameplay experience.