What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Semirhage]

Any melee is harder than every ranged physical. Ranged phys is the easiest DPS role

And with current county-sized hitboxes, minimized positionals, and True North out the wazoo, what excuse is there for melee massively outdamaging everyone else?

[FireMage]

And with current county-sized hitboxes, minimized positionals, and True North out the wazoo, what excuse is there for melee massively outdamaging everyone else?

You did bother to read what I posted right? I mean you didn't as evidenced by your reply. So let me spell it out for you. The easiest melee in the game is harder to play correctly than every Job in the game but two. Melee is the hardest role. And this is on a dummy

[Lyth]

...

Come now, Semirage. You can put those many years of WHM persecution behind you. We're all DPS here.

I'd personally welcome bosses with small hitboxes, and better yet, actually tankable bosses that need to be repositioned around the arena (they might actually make tanking fun if they do this). I want fights that challenge melee harder, because that's what I specifically signed up for. Even were that the case, however, I wouldn't advocate any role having a baseline advantage over the others, simply because I don't believe artificially inflating the numbers alters who you are as a player. Level the rdps playing field, and design fights in a way that allows skilled players of all roles opportunities to showcase their talent.

[Semirhage]

Come now, Semirage. You can put those many years of WHM persecution behind you. We're all DPS here.

I'd personally welcome bosses with small hitboxes, and better yet, actually tankable bosses that need to be repositioned around the arena (they might actually make tanking fun if they do this). I want fights that challenge melee harder, because that's what I specifically signed up for. Even were that the case, however, I wouldn't advocate any role having a baseline advantage over the others, simply because I don't believe artificially inflating the numbers alters who you are as a player. Level the rdps playing field, and design fights in a way that allows skilled players of all roles opportunities to showcase their talent.

I agree. I just enjoy poking holes in the "harder jobs deserve more" argument, because it's incoherent at best and a thinly-veiled "No no you don't understand I deserve more because it's ~*natural*~, not for some arbitrary reason!" at worst. It's how the healer role has -always- worked, and the attitude over there has led to the most stagnant meta I've ever seen in a video game, because the "hard" jobs not only "deserve" to be more complex, more flexible, and better in every way, but we'd all apparently be the poorer if the static forevermeta ever, ever saw anyone else daring to come within spitting distance of it.

I'm just rolling my eyes at "melee naturally deserve to be way stronger than everyone else" because it's a state of game balance that's every bit as arbitrary as the made-up reasoning justifying it.

Melee aren't doing way more damage than everyone else because they're "harder", or "deserve" it, or whatever other waffle Firemage is making up. They're doing more damage because Reaper was released with really strong potencies, and Squeenix decided to overbuff the crap out of the entire role to leapfrog them over Reaper, leaving the casters (minus YoshiP's Golden Child) and ranged behind. That's it. It's not some grandiose fart-sniffing philosophy about how "hard" melee are to play.

[Magikazam]

The ''hardest job should reward more'' is bs the moment you realise the reality of the game don't even reflect that. Difficulty being suggestives aside, I'm sure it a safe bet to say that MNK an BLM are harder to play than SAM, yet SAM is top dps in most case scenario.

[Shurrikhan]

The ''hardest job should reward more'' is bs the moment you realise the reality of the game don't even reflect that. Difficulty being suggestives aside, I'm sure it a safe bet to say that MNK an BLM are harder to play than SAM, yet SAM is top dps in most case scenario.

This, too, seems to conflate nDPS/pDPS (normal/nominal/personal DPS) and rDPS (the "raid DPS" a job brings -- or, one's pDPS + pDPS granted to other jobs - pDPS granted by other jobs)?

BLM's rDPS (that stat typically considered for job balance) may sometimes fall below SAM's, but very rarely will MNK's, especially since SAM was simplified (with Endwalker and then again with the removal of Kaiten).
MNK's rDPS is typically equal to or above SAM's at any given percentile. Even now, BLM will likewise typically stand above SAM in rDPS. (Though, because it offers less rDPS to raid-buffers, it may not actually outperform SAM in its contribution to clear times; rDPS may be our best measure, but it still isn't perfect, since it still (has to) look(s) at jobs in isolation.)

If we go with rDPS my statement still stay true (Except for MNK). Unless we're talking about top performance, and in that case we need to assume DRG is the ultimate hardest class to play.

Only in the 60th and <=40th percentiles last tier did SAM outpace MNK, and in no percentiles this tier. In both, Monk is noticeably ahead in the overall (MNK in 1st place; SAM in 5th this tier and MNK 2nd and SAM 3rd overall last tier).

[Raikai]

I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I wish the aiming group was converted into a fourth role "Support-DPS" to officially 'nest' DNC, BRD, MCH (and a new 7.0 job in there). Purple icon instead of red.

With that, giving this new role among other things, more responsibilities regarding the party mitigation and more tools like Curing Waltz to help healers in tight moments. Things like Addle, Feint could be replaced by personal mitigation/QoL actions.

[Magikazam]

This, too, seems to conflate nDPS/pDPS (normal/nominal/personal DPS) and rDPS (the "raid DPS" a job brings -- or, one's pDPS + pDPS granted to other jobs - pDPS granted by other jobs)?

BLM's rDPS (that stat typically considered for job balance) may sometimes fall below SAM's, but very rarely MNK's, especially since SAM was simplified (with Endwalker and then again with the removal of Kaiten).
MNK's rDPS is typically equal to or above SAM's at any given percentile. Even now, BLM will likewise typically stand above SAM in rDPS. (Though, because it offers less rDPS to raid-buffers, it may not actually outperform SAM in its contribution to clear times; rDPS may be our best measure, but it still isn't perfect, since it still (has to) look(s) at jobs in isolation.)

If we go with rDPS my statement still stay true (Except for MNK). Unless we're talking about top performance, and in that case we need to assume DRG is the ultimate hardest class to play.

[Absurdity]

I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I wish the aiming group was converted into a fourth role "Support-DPS" to officially 'nest' DNC, BRD, MCH (and a new 7.0 job in there). Purple icon instead of red.


With that, giving this new role among other things, more responsibilities regarding the party mitigation and more tools like Curing Waltz to help healers in tight moments. Things like Addle, Feint could be replaced by personal mitigation/QoL actions.

In theory this would be fine, I'd even support giving ranged physical dps an actual role besides "does low damage for no reason but gives 1% stat increase so we take one" but the gameplay reality would be that you're now making 1 role responsible for your party's success in any content that isn't faceroll.

I don't even trust physical ranged players in my pugs to press their 1 mitigation cooldown consistently, let alone bait mechanics that their role in particular is perfectly designed for (anyone remember bards refusing to do the missle bait during Pantokrator 2 in O11S?).

With mitigation being probably the most important aspect of high end content I do not want to leave all of it in the hands of a single role whose competency then determines whether or not we even get to see enrage.

[Valence]

I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but I wish the aiming group was converted into a fourth role "Support-DPS" to officially 'nest' DNC, BRD, MCH (and a new 7.0 job in there). Purple icon instead of red.

With that, giving this new role among other things, more responsibilities regarding the party mitigation and more tools like Curing Waltz to help healers in tight moments. Things like Addle, Feint could be replaced by personal mitigation/QoL actions.

They would need to bring something absolutely mandatory to have else nobody would even take them in a meta and gameplay where the only thing that matters is damage. They removed any kind of mandatory support (manasong) in shb, I am not convinced they will suddenly backpedal over it.