An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Sorel]

Thank you development team for relaying to us the Producer's thoughts on this matter. I would ask my fellow players to remember that this is an official forum and that it would best serve all of us if we stayed focus on the subject at hand, and try to avoid commenting on things not directly related to what the Producer asked us for help on.

Now to the subject at hand. Death Penalty.

I would like there not be a death penalty involving equipment degradation or loss of SP/XP. I prefer a more realistic (as much as a fantasy game can be) and logical consequence of being killed. There is very little logical reason for equipment to suddenly be reduced from 100% to 0% durability ... especially if you die from a DoT like Poison. There is also very little logical reason for a character to permanently forget skills and experience via SP/XP loss from dieing. I believe the most logical and realistic penalty for dying in FFXIV was posted by another player.

Simply make it so that when you die you cannot attack, period... until a 5 minute rez timer goes down. Make it so that Raise I cuts it down by a minute, raise II in half and raise III cuts it out completely. Dying multiple times while in weakened state increases the no attack timer by 1 min each time you die.

After a character comes back from death's door, it's reasonable and logical that she's too weak to physically do anything other than walk for at least a small period of time. No combat. No casting. No crafting. No gathering. She can't even run. By dying, the character has essentially taken themselves out of the fight for a small period of time, and are forced to recover at an Aetheryte Camp (because that's what Aertheryte does ... help players recover HP/MP). I think 3 minutes is better than the suggested 5 ... as long as the timer increases by 3 minutes each time you die while weakened (instead of 1).

The Raise spells that the Producer mentioned would relieve both some of the physical penalties, and reduce the overall time of recovery.

• Raise 1 - Character can run & recovery time reduced by 33%.
• Raise 2 - Character can run, gather, & recovery time reduced by 66%.
• Raise 3 - Character can run, gather, craft, & recovery time reduced by 99%.

Notice that there is no such thing as a "perfect" raise. If a character incurred no additional penalty by dying while in recovery, even with a Raise 3, she'll be unable to go into combat for about 2 seconds. In that small 2 second window the character is still in recovery, so if she dies again inside those two seconds, she'll incur the additional 3 minutes of recovery unless she gets another raise (R1= +120sec, R2= +60sec, R3= +4sec).

That's my suggestion.

[Argh]

Please discuss the above points and any comments such as the below would be really helpful:

•This penalty is weak!

•Do something else!

already stated my argument but forgot to add this, i think.

we want a meaninful death penalty. xp loss is perfect, like ffxi.

[PeppinoTuna]

Maybe I misunderstood, but both 1 & 2 are being added. They aren't separate systems.

Oh, I misunderstood. That's interesting and I hope it works out well. I can't wait to see what they come up with.

[Chezen]

already stated my argument but forgot to add this, i think.

we want a meaninful death penalty. xp loss is perfect, like ffxi.

I have no problem with your opinion being different than mine, but please speak for yourself.

I and a good deal other people, according to their posts, do not want a points loss death penalty. Some don't want the penalty changed at all.

[AriNahoki]

* Thinking of 2 kinds of death penalties

1. Definite occurrence of a ”Temporary status down” effect upon recovery of death (Wears off after a set time OR by paying gil to an NPC)
2. Occurrence of an ”equipment degradation” effect only when using return after death (Recovered by repair)

I think both of these are great. Status down is obviously good enough to keep people from doing a zombie attack. And gear damage is something that is a penalty, but not too harsh of a penalty that people will start getting mad in a group if they die a little.

Not currently planning on having a loss of SP/XP at this point in time

Although this definitely raises the stakes and makes people dread death, I believe this is too harsh of a punishment. In addition, it brings with it anger when you die because now you'll have to spend valuable time to get your rank/level back and often times, in FFXI at least, people will start blaming people and get really mad and cause a lot of drama.

However, we determined that it would be necessary to make multiple raise tiers that can be acquired at different ranks since raise is acquired at rank 38 and it is not possible to raise at low-mid ranks.

I definitely support this. The high raise rank is rather problematic at lower levels.

In addition, in exchange for the death penalty we are looking into making the return cost 0. (This is for regular return, not for when use return when you die.)

Of course we plan to add a 10-20 minute recast timer

This will definitely solve one of the reasons people death warp.

Also, while I love our 'home point' changing to be closer to where we are doing leves or partying, part of me misses being able to just warp back to a normal town without paying 2-3 anima. If there was a way to have a 'town home point' and a 'field home point' too choose from when you return, I think that would be great.

Overall, I think that your approach is great and I thank you for taking the time to comment on this thread.

[Sorel]

Some don't want the penalty changed at all.

... And some do want the penalty changed. There are always going to be at least two sides to every decision about the development of this game.

But unlike the Aggro Badge and Targeting, this issue will not be solved by simply creating a toggle in the UI. We, as players, will have to work this out with the development team. It is very likely going to have to be put in a player poll.

I personally want something that makes sense for FFXIV.

In Rift (which I play on and off), it makes sense that you can continually be killed and brought back to life with little to no penalty because you have been made immortal. It's part of the story. It's the reason why your character exists. So it makes sense that death really isn't a penalty in that game.

In FFXIV, the only thing special about a player character is that they have the powers of the Echo. Otherwise, we're like every NPC in the game. If there is no penalty for death in FFXIV, then wouldn't every living man, woman, and child in Eorzea be an adventurer??

[Anathiel]

I love this idea! Perfect job. Seriously no sarcasm. Nobody afraid to do any type of content. Remmeber in XI nobody would do missions with you because if you died it really sucked (Zilart mission 15 anybody?). Now, people won't be afraid to help other people experience the game's content.

[Chezen]

... And some do want the penalty changed. There are always going to be at least two sides to every decision about the development of this game.

But unlike the Aggro Badge and Targeting, this issue will not be solved by simply creating a toggle in the UI. We, as players, will have to work this out with the development team. It is very likely going to have to be put in a player poll.

I personally want something that makes sense for FFXIV.

In Rift (which I play on and off), it makes sense that you can continually be killed and brought back to life with little to no penalty because you have been made immortal. It's part of the story. It's the reason why your character exists. So it makes sense that death really isn't a penalty in that game.

In FFXIV, the only thing special about a player character is that they have the powers of the Echo. Otherwise, we're like every NPC in the game. If there is no penalty for death in FFXIV, then wouldn't every living man, woman, and child in Eorzea be an adventurer??

The fact that there are different opinions was the point, unless I misread the post I quoted, in which case I would apologize.

Fortunately, we don't actually make the decisions. Most of what people come up with are old ideas, not new ones, and are pretty onesided, my own opinions included.

As for your very last statement, if that is your argument... death is death, whether you are adventurer or cilvilian. What makes an adventurer different is, yes, the powers of echo, and the desire to fight. It doesn't change death.

I also play Rift. Death pulls down your soul, and you have to be "healed", which doesn't exactly fit being immortal.

None of this actually matters to me, I just don't see that death makes sense in the lore of these games in the way you stated. To me, death is just a necessary line that separates succeeding from failing.

[Arcell]

This is perfect!

I actually really like this idea. It will incur a reasonable penalty upon death as the repair recipes will be changed. People will complain but honestly I'm just happy not to see SP/XP loss. SP lost is time lost which is not okay. Also an SP loss system without a level down would be meaningless at 50 anyway.

[Platinumstorm]

This sounds pretty good to me.