YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[LeonKeyh]

While I might agree that I prefer wall-to-wall pulls and killing 2-3 sets of mobs vs just 1... if I'm going to exhibit the attitude you have, I would just go play a console game where I can control the other NPCs.

Other players aren't NPCs. If someone wants every dungeon to be played a certain way, every time, then go play a solo console game.

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

[Shurrikhan]

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

That's just false

They're literally just two speeds. Going slow is not somehow an inherent or tacit state any more than going fast is.

If I, as a single member not in accord with the majority opinion, pull another group and expect everyone else to continue doing their jobs, I am trying to control the speed in which other people go through the dungeon.

If I, as a single member not in accord with the majority opinion, pull only one group and harass anyone who attempts to pull more, I am trying to control the speed in which other people go through the dungeon.

What matters is whether the group wants faintly less stress per pull and to take twice as long, or wants slightly greater stress per pull and to take half as long. One's role is irrelevant to whether or not they are controlling that pace.

If a tank, without any communication, pulls only one group at a time, they are not only trying to control the speed of the group -- they are doing so. If they then communicate that they expect no one to pull extra (despite their never dipping below 70% HP), they are not only controlling that pace but also trying to deny any others' agency in regard to that pace, just as a person pulling ahead despite the 3 people asking them not to would be.

[dspguy]

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

Isn't that the entire crux of the conversation? We are playing an MMO. Other players aren't robots.

"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to do what I say and sell me their Alkonost Whistle for 1 gil. Oh they aren't? Crappy player. "
"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to do what I say and relinquish their house so I can buy it. Oh they aren't? Crappy player."
"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to play the game the way I dictate it. Oh they aren't? Crappy player."

Just saying. It is a ridiculous argument. Best part is...

If people want to pull over the tank, go right ahead. Certain tanks can probably pull a single group and kill it solo while the group runs on ahead and gets slaughtered.

People having issues with how the tank are pulling should take advice that they've likely given to other players about other aspects of the game:

- don't want to deal with the cutscenes in MSQ roulette? Leave.
- don't like how some player is using quartermaster/master loot? Leave.
- don't like how the tank is pulling? Leave.

[Shurrikhan]

If people want to pull over the tank, go right ahead. Certain tanks can probably pull a single group and kill it solo while the group runs on ahead and gets slaughtered.

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

[dspguy]

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

Maybe they could. So problem solved. Why is this thread even at 130 posts? Clear it without the tank then.

[Jojoya]

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking. DPS doesn't have the mitigation from gear needed to handle more than one pack at a time and the tankbusters on some bosses are going to be a problem once you get past the trash.

Probably it would work if its 3 savage raiders queueing together and the healer is SCH. The average player just doesn't have the skill level needed to pull it off in higher level dungeons and it's generally the average (or below player) you're running across in roulettes.

[Shurrikhan]

Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking.

Maybe it's just the time of nights, but... hasn't been that uncommon here. I've had a quite a few competent 3-man runs, be that a lack of heals or tank. Those were when most players were nearing or hitting the ilvl caps for said dungeons, true, but it came down mostly to who opened, use of sprint if we had a phys. ranged, and dropping some AoE damage in favor of ST so that the lower geared dps could pull off the higher-geared one as the first's mitigation CDs depletes.

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

[Jojoya]

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

[Shurrikhan]

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

I said nothing about going in as a 3-man. Every one of those times was with a healer who went afk for 5+ minutes at a time, catching up a boss or more later, or a tank who attempted to hold a run hostage to their pace (which would sometimes even include reading the lore tidbits despite this having been after the inclusion of Exploration Mode).

I mentioned ARR speed-leveling via dungeons because at the time, non-traditional compositions were typically faster and tank enmity margins weren't so bloated, causing people to be more willing and ready to make use of HP bars beyond just the tank's.

[Frizze]

Why is this thread even at 130 posts?

Oh thats easy. Tell someone(or a group of people) with an ego problem that they HAVE an ego problem, and they go into ego defense mode. Apparently for 130+ posts.

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50).

Ive been in dozens(hundreds?) of parties over the years where either the tank or healer had connection issues. Your roulette suddenly becomes a 3 man. If the party isnt confident, sure you can sit there for 5+ mins doing nothing hoping they return. If the tank is good? You shouldnt need a healer, just go. Is the healer good? Then you do not need a tank for really any dungeon. A tank doesnt make a dungeon run possible, they make it efficient. And of course, if the person who disco'd was a DPS, you dont really even notice. The fights just go a bit slower. Source: I have personally done this in every dungeon through the end of Shadowbringers, and some of the Endwalker dungeons too.