How to make TBN feel on par with other tank Mit.

[Midareyukki]

You cant use it for autos, or it wont pop

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.

To continue "TBN being too strong with a guaranteed refund" I firmly disagree. If you go too hard in burst, you don't have MP suddenly you're screwed because its not a free mit. Its a costly mit that at best is frustrating and stressful to use in its current state.

Well, yes. I agree with you. At no point did I imply that wouldn't be the case. I never even said that "it's too strong with a guaranteed refund". Believe me Frosty, if you think I'm defending TBN, I'm not. Acknowledging its perks doesn't mean I don't see flaws nor that I don't think it's lacking. It very much clearly is, I only pointed out the benefits because THAT'S what will end up causing SE to tell you "We understand, but it still has a stronger value than other tanks do." Especially considering you also have other things past TBN. The issue on DRK is that, as you said, it's got virtually no good sustain, Oblation is piddly and takes too long to recharge, and TBN is only good to cut down on incoming damage, not mitigate nor add to it.

I suggest you re-read exactly what I said. The quote was

you're expected to have TBN... but TBN has a cost. Sure, it's refunded, but only if it breaks.

Meaning I never once said that it was a positive that I agreed to. Or at least, not without nuance. What I meant by that was: "Even if it has a refunded damage when it breaks, it first consumed MP and then it requires you to break the shield. That's two conditional aspects no other tank needs to deal with." And then I go on to say "Even if it does refund it, the mere fact it might not do so feels REALLY BAD".

And you pointed out something pretty good that I didn't even consider. You may get a refund if you break TBN. You do not get anything defensive out of using Shadow skills. And considering you're basically replacing it with your best tool available (again, a 25% scaling shield isn't nothing), it quickly makes the system they implemented REALLY AWKWARD. So you always need to keep tabs on your MP. No other tank needs to deal with this.

The CD on Oblation being long is fine, but its only 10 percent mit which doesnt exactly do much considering its only active for 10 seconds. Look at warriors Bloodwhetting, which is already super stong, but paired with equillibrium and ITS FREE. Its a better mit that is completely free.

Yeah, pretty much. Like, what I mean by "Oblation has perks" is that you have a 10% mitigation on 2 charges and also have access to TBN. But obviously there are problems with this. Two off the top of my head:
1 - I reiterate: have access to TBN. Not "You also have TBN". Because, cool, you can use TBN, but there are detriments to using it, and that's a problem. Meaning you cannot consider TBN as always being there for you to complement Oblation.
2 - Which is what I wanted to get to in that other post, it's too piddly and on a long cooldown, which does not match the rest of the kit.

That's why I said "for what it does". Oblation's a nice cooldown... in a vaccum. TBN is also a nice cooldown, again, in a vaccum. In the way DRK is designed, those two have their uses, but are clunky. And when you compare DRK with other tanks, DRK falls behind. Even if other tanks don't have access to 2 mitigations, none of them have a skill with a cost/a skill with a huge cooldown/a skill that can gimp DPS/a skill that if you DPS hard enough with no incoming damage to break a shield will make it problematic when you DO need it in the future. No matter how good a 25% scaling shield is, it alone cannot compete with that. Especially not with a cost on it. No other tank has anything THIS nuanced. And Oblation isn't enough to complement it, no matter how much you have 2 charges or it being decoupled from the skill may be.

Arguably the most "feelsbad" skill in the game is Clemency, which is a GCD that eats up MP. DRK might have the saving grace of at least TBN being more useable than Clemency, but that's not by much!

[Frostyyy]

Two issues I see with this.
TBN at 25 seconds would be absolute ass in dungeon content, where DRK is already incredibly weak. Even adding mit to it wouldn't make up for the severe loss in spammibility increasing its cool down by over 50%.
And more importantly, your changes would give DRK a 50 second Pre-pull of getting two Dark Arts stacks. No one wants to put up with that.

If we're going to look at DRK mits to change, I'd focus on Dark Mind as its a borderline useless skill at the level you get it, and wont start to feel like a real skill until you get to high end raid content.
Its also far more redundant with Oblation than it is TBN, both being deceptively good short cd mits, Dark Mind is in no way the baby version of TBN.

Ok you made a very valid point I did not think of, a 50 second prepull sounds miserable. How about instead of two stacks of dark arts, you could use the first stack on TBN again for free without it feeling like a waste since you are going to get your proc back in at most 7 seconds. I feel this would work better because with a 25 second CD you realistically wouldnt want to spam it on cd anyways. Now for the dungeon comment, in my honest opinion DRK in dungeons is fine. The major issue most newer/non-drk mains run into is not utilizing the rest of their mit correctly, this feels like such a major issue because the other tanks all have a "win in dungeons button" with no thought required. 90 percent of the time a DRK is struggling in dungeons they aren't even using the majority of their kit including arms length. This is more of an issue with how new tanks often dont get all the nuance explained earlier in the game, all there really needs to be is an off line that arms length is a cd and a better tutorial. On the other hand the main aspect DRK has in dungeons that helps is its massive aoe damage, I found that even in crafted gear that DRK can consistently out dps even top level DPS players in trash pulls. I find that DRKs in dungeon can often help kill most mob packs in a decent time. before they're even close to running out of mit. That in combiniation with Abyssal Drain, their other mit, and Living Dead create a great balance in dungeons. The other thing I can include is if the mit is added to TBN, it will feel a LOT better in dungeons than it does now, you would feel the longer duration of the shield and not free like you need to pair tbn with another mit in dungeons, because as it stands right now TBN breaks in a second in mob pulls anyways.

[Frostyyy]

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.


That's why I said "for what it does". Oblation's a nice cooldown... in a vaccum. TBN is also a nice cooldown, again, in a vaccum. In the way DRK is designed, those two have their uses, but are clunky. And when you compare DRK with other tanks, DRK falls behind. Even if other tanks don't have access to 2 mitigations, none of them have a skill with a cost/a skill with a huge cooldown/a skill that can gimp DPS/a skill that if you DPS hard enough with no incoming damage to break a shield will make it problematic when you DO need it in the future. No matter how good a 25% scaling shield is, it alone cannot compete with that. Especially not with a cost on it. No other tank has anything THIS nuanced. And Oblation isn't enough to complement it, no matter how much you have 2 charges or it being decoupled from the skill may be.

Arguably the most "feelsbad" skill in the game is Clemency, which is a GCD that eats up MP. DRK might have the saving grace of at least TBN being more useable than Clemency, but that's not by much!

My apologies if I came off a little strong, I agree with a lot of what you said but the issue is that DRK doesnt have a button that it can really hit for Autos besides oblation, but often 10 percent doesnt like enough esp only for only 10 seconds at a time. I feel this is why they added parry to camo, making camo honestly one of my favorite mitigations in the game. If you can only realistically save TBNs for busters then there is no reason for it to be on a 7 second CD. As for the oblation comments, I agree with you completely, the main issue with oblation is that its on DRK. It would fit into any other tanks kit much much much better. While its fine that oblation is ok, DRK needs something great because as it stands the best mits on DRK is Rampart and Shadow Wall which are essentially shared with the other tanks. In my opinion all they need to do with DRK is consolidate the kit so its not a complete mess. I would rather have 1 strong cd, 1 ok ish cd, than 1 terrible cd, 1 ok cd, and a cd that feels like a waste most of the time. My apologies for cutting most of your post, I did read it all, the forum word cap is just low.

[KageTokage]

I feel like they ought to remove the opportunity cost from both TBN and Clemency; the former by removing both the dark arts effect and MP cost, and the latter by making it an OGCD and no MP cost, but having a single charge that's gained from using Requiescat.

[Xlantaa]

TBN is the strongest shield in game. The only think I agree is to give back the MP if the shield expires (or part of the MP). otherwise, is stronger than other "similar" skill on the other tanks. You can literally negate tank buster damages while other tanks can't. YOu can survive the share tank buster of P6S alone with a DRK without using invulnerability with this (of course combined with other CDs).

[Frostyyy]

I feel like they ought to remove the opportunity cost from both TBN and Clemency; the former by removing both the dark arts effect and MP cost, and the latter by making it an OGCD and no MP cost, but having a single charge that's gained from using Requiescat.

The main reason i don't want them to just remove the MP cost of TBN to make it free every 15 seconds is because it would add clunk to the DRK opener. Its not a bad change it will just feel terrible to pull with Edge, or even flood if the boss is too far away for Edge. Like I said, its a good change and I definitely would love to see it as a step in the right direction, but overall I do like the MP cost for TBN, just not the feeling like I'm wasting that MP. As for Clemency, I feel that Req should give you a stack for clemency that doesn't expire for two minutes (Assuming the make PLD a 2 minute job like everything else)

[Saraide]

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.

What? Why wouldnt autos be a proper use of it? Bosses hit pretty hard with autos.

[Frostyyy]

TBN is the strongest shield in game. The only think I agree is to give back the MP if the shield expires (or part of the MP). otherwise, is stronger than other "similar" skill on the other tanks. You can literally negate tank buster damages while other tanks can't. YOu can survive the share tank buster of P6S alone with a DRK without using invulnerability with this (of course combined with other CDs).

While yes TBN is the strongest shield in the game, it is by no means even close to being a great CD for tanks. Every other tank has something great about their mitigations. DRK just has a lot of clunky mitigations. And yes while you can solo the tanks busters in P6s and P7s, you only realistically do that in the forbidden number parties to help both the healers heal less, and it feels awwweeeful to do esp as the DRK considering most of those busters are during 1 or 2 minute bursts which can derail your entire rotation in an already busy burst. For normal gameplay, reclears/prog, none of the other tanks really even need to be healed after tank busters with dots considering they all have the self sustain to do just fine. I feel that the point of DRK is no self heal and more self mit to stop the damage, so just giving the free TBN proc doesnt fix all of the issues with TBN, just the risk reward. As for TBN being "Stronger than other 'Similar' skill(s) on the other tanks" I firmly disagree. Heart of Corundum and Bloodwhetting overall are better mitigations with more uses than one big hit. And while Holy Sheltron could be considered worse than TBN in single use situations, its the ability to spam it due to gauge rebuilding so fast on Paladin, making it so realistically you can get a lot more great usages of HS over the once a minute TBN (that if you're playing optimally will be used on a raid wide just for the proc and not for the mit itself every other minute)

[Frostyyy]

What? Why wouldnt autos be a proper use of it? Bosses hit pretty hard with autos.

Because of the inconsistency for TBN pops. Most of the time the boss only Autos 3-4 times before going into a major mech, to then auto 15 seconds later, which means if you have a great internet connection and timing you can get a TBN to break on autos consistently, but if you dont have great internet the snapshotting on TBN will cause you to miss an auto or two which 99 percent of the time will cause your TBN to be left with like maybe 1 percent left on the shield and you get nothing but depression, frustration, and disappointment lol.

[Saraide]

Because of the inconsistency for TBN pops. Most of the time the boss only Autos 3-4 times before going into a major mech, to then auto 15 seconds later, which means if you have a great internet connection and timing you can get a TBN to break on autos consistently, but if you dont have great internet the snapshotting on TBN will cause you to miss an auto or two which 99 percent of the time will cause your TBN to be left with like maybe 1 percent left on the shield and you get nothing but depression, frustration, and disappointment lol.

Oh I have used TBN a lot. What I take issue with is saying autos arent proper use of TBN because it's just straight up wrong.